Talking science

[mindlight]

I AM a math modeller-that’s why I say the entire process was woeful.

Academic halfwits, who failed to get even close.
Professor lockdowns numbers were a bad joke.

Sweden proved that shutting down education and the economy was unnecessary. That Ferguson got it wrong, Proper controls showed the risk to teachers was way exaggerated in the U.K.

The failure to institute a feedback regime , to get test data from the off, proved they had little idea how to go about it.
Boris in the end rightly ignored them. The actual figures way under even the minimum bands.

It said it all that they used delta death rate with omicron spread despite South Africa evidence to actively mislead decision makers.

The virus may be dangerous, but killing the economy, shutting down education, and shutting down half of the health service unnecessarily are just as bad long term. Sweden didn’t shut down anything like as much , and didn’t suffer as a result.

The unions have not stopped misleading. Universities are planning to continue preventing visitors to graduating. These public sector nutters - including BMA- who abuse science and statistics for their own ends must be stopped.

Delta was more deadly than Omicron but the higher R rate of Omicron requires protective measures for the weakest and most vulnerable. You are again focused in the UK discussion where the underfunded NHS lacks capacity for a variety of reasons including post BREXIT manpower shortages and underfunding. Other health systems have continued to cope with day to day business. The Swedish response is not comparable to the more crowded UK and dies not compare well to Germany for instance.

But actually your commentary shows how political agendas spoil the clear message of the science relating to the risk that persists with the Omicron version due to its high R rate. Yes it has a low IFR compared to Delta (indeed only the same level as flu) but may kill more people than either Delta or the worst flu seasons since 1918. Factor in long covid and the mysterious ways in which covid unlocks hidden lurgies and lockdowns make more sense. This is not over yet.

 

[mindlight]

We can't, because you are addressing a symptom, and the issue wont go away until you address the cause, which is a dire lack of critical thinking skills.

This is wishful thinking and an oversimplification of science's communication issues during and indeed before this pandemic. There is too much critical thinking about things that should be axiomatic and trustworthy. People no longer trust scientists, even when the mainstream scientific community is right, as with covid, why?

 

[VladTheEmailer]

A lot of atheist scientists

You answered your own question, anything that goes against you beliefs is a lie.

 

[mindlight]

You answered your own question, anything that goes against you beliefs is a lie.

No that is not what I said here. That is simply the assertion of the formula you have chosen to attempt to dismiss what I said. Lazy misrepresentations like this erode trust and credibility.

 

[VladTheEmailer]

No that is not what I said here. That is simply the assertion of the formula you have chosen to attempt to dismiss what I said. Lazy misrepresentations like this erode trust and credibility.

I dismissed what you said for a reason, now use sound reasoning to refute me.

Science has proven me wrong many times. I got over it.

 

[Tanj]

This is wishful thinking

I know sadly, the issue with critical thinking is not going to be fixed.

and an oversimplification of science's communication issues during and indeed before this pandemic.

No, it isn't. There are people out there that actually think the earth is flat. That is not science's fault.

There is too much critical thinking about things that should be axiomatic and trustworthy.

Critical thinking applies to neither. You are talking about ignorant skepticism, which bears no relation to actual critical thinking.

People no longer trust scientists, even when the mainstream scientific community is right, as with covid, why?

Because they lack critical thinking skills... or go with the bible quote in my sig.

 

[Mountainmike]

Carefully ignoring what I said.

The modellers were wilfully cheating to use delta IFR with omicron R.
It wasn’t just incompetence. As error bars show they deliberately sought to overstate the problem

NHS isn’t over funded: it is woefully inefficient. It can sub contract at its cost to organisations that make a substantial profit at the same price. It is also woefully incompetent, judged by the experience of many people and proven by immense negligence claims.

Itis hardly surprising when it gives pensions that are at three times higher than fair return, which is a problem costing hundreds of billions. When it was needed most in covid it massively reduced output, not increased like every other public service. The GPS are still hiding from the public. NHS has killed many with preventable cancers.

Delta was more deadly than Omicron but the higher R rate of Omicron requires protective measures for the weakest and most vulnerable. You are again focused in the UK discussion where the underfunded NHS lacks capacity for a variety of reasons including post BREXIT manpower shortages and underfunding. Other health systems have continued to cope with day to day business. The Swedish response is not comparable to the more crowded UK and dies not compare well to Germany for instance.

But actually your commentary shows how political agendas spoil the clear message of the science relating to the risk that persists with the Omicron version due to its high R rate. Yes it has a low IFR compared to Delta (indeed only the same level as flu) but may kill more people than either Delta or the worst flu seasons since 1918. Factor in long covid and the mysterious ways in which covid unlocks hidden lurgies and lockdowns make more sense. This is not over yet.

 

[Ophiolite]

To make any decision we need trust.

No. We need data. And we need intelligence. Which one are you missing? I, and others here, can help with the first.

 

[drtime]

No. We need data. And we need intelligence. Which one are you missing? I, and others here, can help with the first.

Great. So how many people actually died of covid rather than with it? How many will die and did die from the vaccine, and how are those stats kept? Why are results from studies being hidden for (if they get their way) many decades?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Great. So how many people actually died of covid rather than with it? How many will die and did die from the vaccine, and how are those stats kept? Why are results from studies being hidden for (if they get their way) many decades?

IIRC, in the UK, roughly 17,000 people died with Covid-19 as the sole cause of death. ~177,000 died with Covid-19 on the death certificate, and ~155,000 died within 28 days of a positive test. There were ~127,700 excess deaths above the 5-year average between March 2020 and January 2022.

These figures suggest that comorbidities are very significant in Covid-19 deaths and that a significant number would not have otherwise died in that period.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Great. So how many people actually died of covid rather than with it? How many will die and did die from the vaccine, and how are those stats kept? Why are results from studies being hidden for (if they get their way) many decades?

This thread isn't about your personal opinions about the COVID data. It is about credibility and science communication.

 

[drtime]

This thread isn't about your personal opinions about the COVID data. It is about credibility and science communication.

How can I have an opinion about data when it is hidden for decades, or not available due to faulty stat keeping? I don't find you or that credible.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

How can I have an opinion about data when it is hidden for decades, or not available due to faulty stat keeping? I don't find you or that credible.

Why do you think @Hans Blaster isn't credible?

 

[ruthiesea]

Great. So how many people actually died of covid rather than with it? How many will die and did die from the vaccine, and how are those stats kept? Why are results from studies being hidden for (if they get their way) many decades?

Nobody dies of AIDS but of the infections resulting from the compromised immune system. People do die of Covid and from complications resulting from Covid, such pneumonia, resulting from the disease. I cannot find any reliable source that lists any deaths from the vaccine.
Many of Covid related studies can be found online.

 

[Ophiolite]

Great. So how many people actually died of covid rather than with it? How many will die and did die from the vaccine, and how are those stats kept? Why are results from studies being hidden for (if they get their way) many decades?

The reality you appear to be inhabiting is known to most people as delusion. These data are available. I would point you to them, but I doubt it would make any difference to your opinion.

Do you understand the significance of co-morbidity? Apparently not.
Do you understand the significance of excess deaths? How do you account for them?
Do you understand that deaths from the vaccine are minimal? Apparently not.
Do you understand that the deaths from Covid are in the millions? Apparently not.
Do you understand anything about this pandemic? Apparently not.

But, while you are avoiding meaningful answers to those questions, feel free to provide evidence that relevant studies are "being hidden".

 

[drtime]

Nobody dies of AIDS but of the infections resulting from the compromised immune system. People do die of Covid and from complications resulting from Covid, such pneumonia, resulting from the disease. I cannot find any reliable source that lists any deaths from the vaccine.
Many of Covid related studies can be found online.

Exactly. Yet athletes all over are dropping dead for whatever reason. There are no proper studies or stats that list what people actually died from. The blame it on...whatever they write in their report. Who really knows? So we would not call the stats science or representative of reality.

 

[drtime]

The reality you appear to be inhabiting is known to most people as delusion. These data are available. I would point you to them, but I doubt it would make any difference to your opinion.

I doubt you could point to anything at all that represents valid stats.

Do you understand the significance of co-morbidity? Apparently not.

One can get all sorts of significance from that. For example if someone had 5 other problems as well as a supposed positive covid result, their death might be listed as a covid death!

Do you understand the significance of excess deaths? How do you account for them?

I don't know. Some professionals suspect that the vaccines are a big part or even the main cause for that. Who knows?

Do you understand that deaths from the vaccine are minimal? Apparently not.

By what stats? Do they follow people and check all that? No. There are places to report, but many suggest that hospitals have no time to do that cumbersome task anywhere near properly. Who could tell what some athelete died from on a field suddenly? If they were fully vaxxed, who checks that out as a possible cause of death properly? That reminds me of the guy in a police car (just a joke) that was listed as a suicide, with 4 bullet shots to the back of the head.

Do you understand that the deaths from Covid are in the millions?

No. I understand they report covid as the cause of death. I understand that if some died from vaccine related causes, they probably could not tell.

But, while you are avoiding meaningful answers to those questions, feel free to provide evidence that relevant studies are "being hidden".

The drug company does not want to release data for decades. Is that news to you?

 

[Ophiolite]

I doubt you could point to anything at all that represents valid stats.


One can get all sorts of significance from that. For example if someone had 5 other problems as well as a supposed positive covid result, their death might be listed as a covid death!

I don't know. Some professionals suspect that the vaccines are a big part or even the main cause for that. Who knows?
By what stats? Do they follow people and check all that? No. There are places to report, but many suggest that hospitals have no time to do that cumbersome task anywhere near properly. Who could tell what some athelete died from on a field suddenly? If they were fully vaxxed, who checks that out as a possible cause of death properly? That reminds me of the guy in a police car (just a joke) that was listed as a suicide, with 4 bullet shots to the back of the head.



No. I understand they report covid as the cause of death. I understand that if some died from vaccine related causes, they probably could not tell.

The drug company does not want to release data for decades. Is that news to you?

The topic of this thread is:

At a time when mainstream science is increasingly rejected by people on the fringes of society, how can science promote facts and evidence, relating to matters of pressing concern, like covid19?

Thank you for eloquently providing an example of the problem and instances of the rhetoric employed to misrepresent facts.

 

[drtime]

The topic of this thread is:
Thank you for eloquently providing an example of the problem and instances of the rhetoric employed to misrepresent facts.

So you can't talk science when it comes to the instance of medical science some have mentioned? Your rhetoric is noted

 

[mindlight]

The topic of this thread is:
Thank you for eloquently providing an example of the problem and instances of the rhetoric employed to misrepresent facts.

Thank you, I think? Or were you being sarcastic and considering me to be a part of the problem. I cannot tell from what you wrote.

I think we are in agreement about covid being real and about the science relating to that and the necessity of considered measures to cope with that.

You have studiously avoided discussing the ways in which scientists themselves have contributed to the communication gap with "deluded extremists." The ways in which science has been politicized, monetized, overextended its scope, failed to communicate its actual findings in a way that people understand and held too much certainty over speculative theories for example.

Standing in no-mans-land you never know where the bullets are coming from but it might still be the honest mans' position.