Taking Questions on Genesis

[doubtingmerle]

Okay, in this thread, I'll take any questions you may have about the events in Genesis, and try to answer them to the best of my ability.

This thread is open to all sorts of stuff, from creatio ex nihilo to the Fall, the Flood, the Dispensations, the Ark, kinds, what language Adam & Eve spoke, anything.

Pray for me.

Genesis says God spent one day making the firmament. It says the stars are in the firmament and the rain comes from above it. What is it? Is this word the relic of an old cosmology?

 

[AV1611VET]

Genesis says God spent one day making the firmament. It says the stars are in the firmament and the rain comes from above it. What is it? Is this word the relic of an old cosmology?

The Bible starts out:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.

Notice that "heaven" is singular here?

This is very important, because after all the creating is done, we read:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

How is it "heaven" is singular in 1:1, and is plural in 2:1?

He must have created another "heaven" in between.

And indeed He did.

In fact, we know He created two more "heavens" in between, because Paul says:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Remember: this is the same Paul that warns us about making words plural that shouldn't be.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So now back to Genesis 1.

After God makes heaven and earth, He shears off a layer of water and balloons it out into space, calling the area in between (i.e., from the top of the ocean to the bottom of the water canopy) a "firmament".

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

He calls this firmament "Heaven" in the next verse.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

So now we have two "heavens" (or "firmaments"): the one created in Genesis 1:1, and the one created in Genesis 1:7.

I don't know when the third one was created; but we know it was, because Paul went there after he was beaten to death outside of Lystra (Acts 14).

So here's how it all stacks up:

1. First Heaven = atmosphere = ground level to 62 miles up
2. Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles up to edge of universe
3. Third Heaven = Heaven proper

 

[doubtingmerle]

The Bible starts out:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.

Notice that "heaven" is singular here?

This is very important, because after all the creating is done, we read:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

How is it "heaven" is singular in 1:1, and is plural in 2:1?

He must have created another "heaven" in between.

And indeed He did.

In fact, we know He created two more "heavens" in between, because Paul says:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Remember: this is the same Paul that warns us about making words plural that shouldn't be.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So now back to Genesis 1.

After God makes heaven and earth, He shears off a layer of water and balloons it out into space, calling the area in between (i.e., from the top of the ocean to the bottom of the water canopy) a "firmament".

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

He calls this firmament "Heaven" in the next verse.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

So now we have two "heavens" (or "firmaments"): the one created in Genesis 1:1, and the one created in Genesis 1:7.

I don't know when the third one was created; but we know it was, because Paul went there after he was beaten to death outside of Lystra (Acts 14).

So here's how it all stacks up:

1. First Heaven = atmosphere = ground level to 62 miles up
2. Second Heaven = outer space = 62 miles up to edge of universe
3. Third Heaven = Heaven proper

Except genesis 1:14-17 says the sun and stars are in the firmament. How can this be the atmosphere?

The ancients taught a structure over the earth that supported the sun, moon, and stars. Genesis seems to be reflecting this ancient cosmology.

 

[AV1611VET]

Except genesis 1:14-17 says the sun and stars are in the firmament. How can this be the atmosphere?

The sun and the stars are in Firmament Two ... or Second Firmament ... or Second Heaven.

The first firmament is our atmosphere.

The second firmament is outer space.

The third firmament is Heaven proper.

A firmament is nothing more than a containment area.

God created the firmaments first, then populated them.

The ancients taught a structure over the earth that supported the sun, moon, and stars. Genesis seems to be reflecting this ancient cosmology.

The ancients were wrong.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Funny. Biblically animal behavior is representative of the behavior of the gentiles, who are outside of the grace and knowledge of God, and likened to "brute (brutish) beasts".

So which parts of Genesis are metaphorical and how do we spot them?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So which parts of Genesis are metaphorical and how do we spot them?

I guess you just keep studying. Much of understanding comes from your own life experience. The more you have the more you can understand scripture.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The ancients were wrong.

The moderns are wrong too.
Mankind hasn't changed.
Except fallen..... in Beresheit .... as written.....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So which parts of Genesis are metaphorical and how do we spot them?

Would you like to read the metaphorical parts of Beresheit (Genesis) ?

 

[doubtingmerle]

The sun and the stars are in Firmament Two ... or Second Firmament ... or Second Heaven.

The first firmament is our atmosphere.

The second firmament is outer space.

The third firmament is Heaven proper.

A firmament is nothing more than a containment area.

God created the firmaments first, then populated them.

The ancients were wrong.

Multiple firmaments? Why does genesis refer only to "the firmament" as though there was only one?

In genesis 1:6-8 it says God made "the firmament". In v 14-18 it says he put stars in "the firmament", but this is a different firmament?!?

Creative solution, but I don't agree.

 

[AV1611VET]

Multiple firmaments?

See Post 122 again, please.

Why does genesis refer only to "the firmament" as though there was only one?

Because it's talking about only one firmament at a time.

Seven times the word "firmament" occurs in Genesis 1:

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Which one(s) should be plural without changing any of its meaning?

In genesis 1:6-8 it says God made "the firmament". In v 14-18 it says he put stars in "the firmament", but this is a different firmament?!?

Yes.

Creative solution,

Thank you!

... but I don't agree.

That's your prerogative.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Multiple firmaments? Why does genesis refer only to "the firmament" as though there was only one?

There are three, and all are called "heaven".

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven." 2 Corinthians 12:2

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Would you like to read the metaphorical parts of Beresheit (Genesis) ?

Sure. But my question was how do I recognise the metaphorical parts over the literal parts?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sure. But my question was how do I recognise the metaphorical parts over the literal parts?

Do you want to know, by taking someone else's word for it ?

The first step of course, needed in any case, is to read it all. Metaphorical et al, all together .

Just like in school, if you read something and don't know, then ask.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Do you want to know, by taking someone else's word for it ?

The first step of course, needed in any case, is to read it all. Metaphorical et al, all together .

Just like in school, if you read something and don't know, then ask.

I ask a question, you prevaricate and then tell me if I don't know something to ask? Why on earth would I ask again if this is the quality of response I would get?

I prefer honest answers like "I don't know" than this sort of trite non-answer.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure. But my question was how do I recognise the metaphorical parts over the literal parts?

Simply apply the principle GOD DID IT to a passage and see if it makes sense.

If it does, chances are it is literal.

If it doesn't, try GOD CAUSED IT or GOD ASSISTED IT or some other verb.

For example:

1. Literal or metaphorical?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Answer: Literal ... GOD DID IT.

2. Literal or metaphorical?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Answer: Literal ... SERPENT DID IT.

For the tough ones ... well ... that's what's this thread is for.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I prefer honest answers like "I don't know" than this sort of trite non-answer.

I don't know if you ever read Genesis or not, nor if you even care if any of it is metaphor or other. If you don't read it, none of it matters,
and if you do read it, maybe you will be able to see yourself what is metaphor and what is not.
I don't know what you are able to understand, or to not understand.
So, as in the previous post with 2 examples, one of which was wrong, btw,
(possibly - it's actually up in the air) (metaphor?) ....
if there is a statement in Genesis you want to know about and cannot tell if it is metaphor or not, ask. Nice and simple instead of hypothetical and meaningless.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I don't know if you ever read Genesis or not, nor if you even care if any of it is metaphor or other. If you don't read it, none of it matters,
and if you do read it, maybe you will be able to see yourself what is metaphor and what is not.

I've read it many times. To me it seems entirely allegorical, therefore it is all a metaphor.

So, as in the previous post with 2 examples, one of which was wrong, btw,
(possibly - it's actually up in the air) (metaphor?) ....

Please tell me you see how hilarious this is as an answer to the question "how do you tell which parts are metaphorical?"

if there is a statement in Genesis you want to know about and cannot tell if it is metaphor or not, ask.

Who should I ask? It seems that I may get different answers from different people.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I've read it many times. To me it seems entirely allegorical, therefore it is all a metaphor.

Please tell me you see how hilarious this is as an answer to the question "how do you tell which parts are metaphorical?"

Who should I ask? It seems that I may get different answers from different people.

Keep asking, keep studying, keep praying for understanding, keep believing that what you are reading is true even if you don't understand it now. Fight the temptation to throw your hands up in despair if answers don't come fast enough.

Take a lesson from a certain football player (don't remember his name). He stated that he 'thought he understood football in high school', until he got to college. He then thought he then had learned all about football, until he got to the pro's. He later went into coaching and revealed that he once again had to learn what football was all about.

I'm guessing that if he ever became a general manager or owner he would have to learn all about football once more.

So judge yourself using this story. Are you still in high school? College? We all are learning and will until we croak.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Okay, in this thread, I'll take any questions you may have about the events in Genesis, and try to answer them to the best of my ability.

This thread is open to all sorts of stuff, from creatio ex nihilo to the Fall, the Flood, the Dispensations, the Ark, kinds, what language Adam & Eve spoke, anything.

Pray for me.

I have another question. In light of Genesis, when were all the rock layers formed that we see in the grand canyon? I had thought you were saying they were created in Genesis 1, but in a recent thread you seemed to be switching to flood geology. If they were made in Gen 1, how is it that they are filled with fossils? If made during a global flood, how is it that the layers include things like wind blown sand and animal tracks that could not be made in a flood?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have another question. In light of Genesis, when were all the rock layers formed that we see in the grand canyon? I had thought you were saying they were created in Genesis 1, but in a recent thread you seemed to be switching to flood geology. If they were made in Gen 1, how is it that they are filled with fossils? If made during a global flood, how is it that the layers include things like wind blown sand and animal tracks that could not be made in a flood?

Gap theory explains this (sorry AV, couldn't resist).