Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

[2PhiloVoid]

Actually, not to tell on myself since it was in my younger days,
I was sorta homeless, living day to day in a hobo camp.
All of us were burn outs from bad relationships, drug, meaningless jobs and a society of glitter that was empty.
The only Bible in camp was a tattered remnant as the smokers were using the pages as paper to roll their cigarettes.

One of the guys started talking about "holy poverty" and "prayer" and God.
So that started the concept of St. Francis type poverty. We talked about how the Saints could go into the desert and survive.
We talked about right living by Holy Men who could survive and thrive, homeless in poverty.
We talked about God and prayer as keys to that survival.
That was when I started having a relationship with God.

It was when I read the Gospel that I saw what we were starting to understand in the camp was "the way, the truth and the life."
What I learned in that camp was an objective reality and the Gospels matched that reality.
The guy who did the talking mostly talked about Faith and God
He never mentioned the Bible or Jesus or the Gospel although he was teaching it as "applied science."

I went on to many other adventures...

That, my friend, is what I call a testimony of faith.... Amen!

 

[Aaron112]

.the promise of God, when you get there, it will be there.

one key>

if you are going the right way

 

[Kylie]

We as Christians know we are right...

And Muslims know they are right, Hindus know they are right, Buddhists know they are right...

You can't all be right.

And if you can think that a Buddhist can be wrong when they are just as convicted in their beliefs as you, then strength of conviction obviously isn't sufficient reason to justify believing that you have the truth.

...and there is (and will never be) a time in history when everyone is absolutely sure in what is right; rather, the faith will be a mystery (St. Augustine), but those who know it will declare its truth.

Again, people of all faiths can say this, or similar.

Well, if your husband gives you a gift you are not aware of until it is brought up to you, are you to say he did not give it? If he says "I bought you a [_]", then besides reading it and trusting that he is telling the truth, what proof do you have?

The fact that I have a "whatever he bought me."

If he buys me a necklace, and I just wake up and see it one day, I'm gonna ask where it came from. I'm not going to assume that I always had it but hadn't remembered until now.

But if all I have as evidence for this gift is that my husband wrote about it, but I can't find it anywhere, what am I going to conclude? I'm going to figure that he didn't get me anything, aren't I?

And when Christianity tells me that I have a gift that I don't even get until I'm dead, what am I meant to think? I mean, if there is no gift, the only ones who know that there's no gift are dead and unable to let everyone else know that it's not true. So there's absolutely no way to verify this, is there?

 

[Kylie]

Let me point out again that this is one of the most thoughtless scientific experiments imaginable.

Yeah, but you can't say why, can you?

It's very simple.

1. A claim is made.
2. If the claim is true, then we should see X in the real world. If the claim is false, we should see Y in the real world.
3. We go and see if there is X or Y in the real world.
4. If we find X, then it is evidence that the claim is true.
5. If we find Y, then it is proof that the claim is false.

What part of this do you have a problem with?

 

[Kylie]

Did Paul?

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Quoting the Bible to prove the Bible makes about as much sense as me showing you an episode of Star Trek to show you that Star Trek is real.

 

[Kylie]

No. Guess science can't test it after all then eh?

Okay, so you do not have enough faith to move a mountain.

According to Matthew 17:20, Jesus said, "...verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

And according to Mark 4:31, the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds.

So Jesus is saying, in Matthew, that if you have even the smallest amount of faith, you can pray for the mountain to move, and it will move. (Oh, and this just says it will move to "yonder place," so it doesn't need to be in the sea. So we can move Mt Everest to the Australian Outback after all.)

The only way to have this be true and for you to also be speaking the truth when you say that you do NOT have enough faith to move the mountain is to conclude that you don't have any faith at all.

Somehow, I don't think you want to make this claim.

So, I will ask you again:

Do you have enough faith to move a mountain through prayer, bearing in mind that Jesus himself says that you can do it with even the smallest amount of faith?

Yes, you have at least the smallest amount of faith and you can move the mountain through prayer.

No, you lack even the smallest amount of faith and can not move the mountain.

Which is it?

 

[Kylie]

Number one, I feel like you're taking what's very likely an idiom way too literally, like if someone says "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse". Surely you wouldn't say if they don't eat an entire horse they're therefore not hungry, would you?

Then we need soime method which we can use to determine if a part of the Bible is literal or if it is metaphorical.

Number two, I'm not sure I expressed my point clearly enough in my last post to you. You were focused on one possible outcome (an entire mountain lifting up and moving), but what if, as far as you can tell, nothing happens? Does that mean the supernatural or God therefore doesn't exist? Of course not. The very most you'd be able to conclude is that the specific prayer that was conducted didn't result in a discernible change in the mountain you monitored. But you wouldn't be able to draw any conclusions about the supernatural or God.

I could draw the conclusion that the claim made in the Bible about the ability for believers to move mountains by praying was wrong, since the prayer did not move the mountain.

Plus there's what I said before, that there is no potential outcome that is inconsistent with or that would negate the existence of the supernatural or God. That means they are absolutely 100% unfalsifiable, which typically removes something from the category of scientifically testable.

Well, since the Bible states very clearly what the outcome will be, we can certainly draw conclusions about the claim in the Bible if the stated outcome does not happen.

 

[Kylie]

What if the outcome of that "test" could be:

1. immediate
2. delayed
3. denied
4. done piecemeal style

I get the same results no matter what I pray to, God or not.

 

[Kylie]

You can test it for yourself.
It is a personal dialogue between you and God
With an open mind and an honest desire to see God
Ask God

This does not seem like a valid way to find objective truth.

 

[truthpls]

Okay, so you do not have enough faith to move a mountain.

Not yet, but it is growing. Guess science misses any opportunity to test

According to Matthew 17:20, Jesus said, "...verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

And according to Mark 4:31, the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds.

There is plenty smaller than a mustard seed. Like a molecule.

So Jesus is saying, in Matthew, that if you have even the smallest amount of faith, you can pray for the mountain to move, and it will move. (Oh, and this just says it will move to "yonder place," so it doesn't need to be in the sea. So we can move Mt Everest to the Australian Outback after all.)

No, because He told some people they did have faith. They must have had a small amount, but not as big as a mustard seed yet possibly.

The only way to have this be true and for you to also be speaking the truth when you say that you do NOT have enough faith to move the mountain is to conclude that you don't have any faith at all.

Or that the mustard seed is a small seed but the faith of people generally is even smaller at the moment. I would invite science to come back in ten thousand years for a real test, sadly they won't be here any more. Not natural only science. Pitiful

Somehow, I don't think you want to make this claim.

So, I will ask you again:

Do you have enough faith to move a mountain through prayer, bearing in mind that Jesus himself says that you can do it with even the smallest amount of faith?

No! But maybe in a few centuries I might have even more faith than that. What's the rush? Eternity is long time and we are a work in progress

Yes, you have at least the smallest amount of faith and you can move the mountain through prayer.

You sure could. And, I daresay, will one day if you heed that come to Jesus call.

No, you lack even the smallest amount of faith and can not move the mountain.

Which is it?

I have faith, but not as much as a seed yet. You see, an electron is smaller than an atom and an atom is smaller than a molecule. A molecule is smaller than a pepper speck...etc.

 

[truthpls]

Quoting the Bible to prove the Bible makes about as much sense as me showing you an episode of Star Trek to show you that Star Trek is real.

No one raised from the dead fulfilling star trek episodes. Even their imaginary replicator didn't feed 20,000 people

 

[AV1611VET]

Quoting the Bible to prove the Bible makes about as much sense as me showing you an episode of Star Trek to show you that Star Trek is real.

Then don't quote me science to substantiate science.

 

[AV1611VET]

I get the same results no matter what I pray to, God or not.

How do you know?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yeah, but you can't say why, can you?

We've already been over why.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You can test it for yourself.
It is a personal dialogue between you and God
With an open mind and an honest desire to see God
Ask God

I prayed for a couple decades. It never resembled a dialog. Even when I did pray, I did so with no expectation of response and certainly no expectation to *see* God.

Even if I tried it today, I wouldn't come close, as not only do I have no interest in receiving communication from any deity, I have no reasons to think they exist. If the weak in faith can't move mountains, those with zero faith should not expect anything.

 

[dlamberth]

You can test it for yourself.
It is a personal dialogue between you and God
With an open mind and an honest desire to see God
Ask God

My prayers are of Gratitude. I say "Thank You" many times during the day for the blessings received through out the day. And I feel a deep, deep sense of thankfulness while saying it.

 

[Kylie]

Not yet, but it is growing. Guess science misses any opportunity to test

Science has done countless tests. You don't seem to understand how science works.

There is plenty smaller than a mustard seed. Like a molecule.

Ah, so how much faith is equivalent to a mustard seed.

What units is faith measured in anyway?

No, because He told some people they did have faith. They must have had a small amount, but not as big as a mustard seed yet possibly.

Again, how does physical size and amount of faith relate?

Or that the mustard seed is a small seed but the faith of people generally is even smaller at the moment. I would invite science to come back in ten thousand years for a real test, sadly they won't be here any more. Not natural only science. Pitiful

Wishful thinking on your part.

Or perhaps you've had access to a time machine?

No! But maybe in a few centuries I might have even more faith than that. What's the rush? Eternity is long time and we are a work in progress

Sure, whatever you say.

You sure could. And, I daresay, will one day if you heed that come to Jesus call.

I could, if I came to Jesus?

How does that work? You just said that no one today has that much faith.

I have faith, but not as much as a seed yet. You see, an electron is smaller than an atom and an atom is smaller than a molecule. A molecule is smaller than a pepper speck...etc.

So you hardly have any faith at all, is that what you are saying?

Anyway, why would Jesus tell the people they could do it if they couldn't possibly have that much faith?

Isn't that like saying, "You can lift up a mountain with a single finger. If you are strong enough. Which you aren't."

That works for anything. People can run faster than sound. If they can run fast enough. Which they can't.

Claims of this sort are meaningless, so I have to wonder why Jesus bothered to even say it in the first place.

 

[Kylie]

No one raised from the dead fulfilling star trek episodes.

No one was raised from the dead in the Bible either. All you have is the CLAIM that they were, and that's no different to Star Trek claiming that Spock rose from the dead in Star Trek 3.

Even their imaginary replicator didn't feed 20,000 people

Actually, it's fed millions.

 

[Kylie]

Then don't quote me science to substantiate science.

Science isn't a tome of knowledge.

Science is a process to investigate the real world.

Stop treating it like it's a religion.

 

[Kylie]

How do you know?

Let's say I pray to my car. No matter what happens, I can say that my car's response falls into one of those categories.