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God Bless Rev. WayneGoodbye, and God bless. Your interpretations are what I reject, and not you as a person or even as a believer, since Jesus did say that "whoever is not against us is for us." I wish you well, and no, it's not that I can't discuss the Bible with you, it's just that we see eye to eye on so few points that it becomes long and tedious doing explanations. And it becomes even more so in re-explaining positions after you have posted responses that were far afield from my actual comments.
I prefer to depart in peace rather than pursue this further, that's all.
In Christ
Do we take your word for this or can you prove it without using sourses that are "tainted by man"?
Well elman, we seem to have hit a road block, you can't say the bible is authored by man and then use it to prove something about God, that would lead to human kind picking and choosing from the scriptures the parts they like best and discarding the rest, and by your logic this would be perfectly acceptable to our creator who is capable of producing an entire universe the depth of which we can only guess, yet, according to you, he can't write a book.All sources are tainted by men, but the Bible says God is a spirit.
The issue is not God's ability to write a book. The issue is did He write everything or anything in a book? Where did this rule come from that we cannot pick and chose what is from God and what is not from God? Is that your rule?Well elman, we seem to have hit a road block, you can't say the bible is authored by man and then use it to prove something about God, that would lead to human kind picking and choosing from the scriptures the parts they like best and discarding the rest, and by your logic this would be perfectly acceptable to our creator who is capable of producing an entire universe the depth of which we can only guess, yet, according to you, he can't write a book.
It is the work of men who were servants of God in some cases and inspired by divine truth in some cases and in other cases, not inspired by God and not servants of God. One can reasonably arrive at the possibility of God being non physical or supernatural without having to read it in the Bible, but the Bible does contain a lot of divine truth and when it says God is spirit and when it says God is loving and cannot lie, I believe it to be true.What is the bible if it's not the work of the almighty God Jehovah.
Rev. 22:18.The issue is not God's ability to write a book. The issue is did He write everything or anything in a book? Where did this rule come from that we cannot pick and chose what is from God and what is not from God? Is that your rule?
Perhaps you've never found answers to questions that you feel contradict other portions of the bible. Scripturally speaking that's no reason to disregard the authority of the entire scripture, or even a part of it.elman said:It is the work of men who were servants of God in some cases and inspired by divine truth in some cases and in other cases, not inspired by God and not servants of God.
100% agreed! but this is whether the bible has the authority to teach such things, the arguments for "God" in the world are not scriptural they are scientific, mans sciences change almost day by day, but the bible remains the same.elman said:One can reasonably arrive at the possibility of God being non physical or supernatural without having to read it in the Bible,
Thats the point. How do you know these things are not the mere teachings of man unless you accpet the bible as the inerrant word of God. You seem to look at the world for support of the bible! Where does it say we should do this in the scriptures?elnam said:but the Bible does contain a lot of divine truth and when it says God is spirit and when it says God is loving and cannot lie, I believe it to be true.
Or I could argue that is not from God or at least it is not in the sense you are interpreting it.Rev. 22:18.
You could argue that this only refers to the book of Revelation, and that would be a sound argument, but the you'd have to conceed that the book of revelation is the innerant teaching of God! would you do that?
If I believe that God never lies, then I have reason to disbelieve a so called scripture that says God sent lying spirits from His throne to decieve men. How did the authority of the entire scripture get established? Who established it? When?Perhaps you've never found answers to questions that you feel contradict other portions of the bible. Scripturally speaking that's no reason to disregard the authority of the entire scripture, or even a part of it.
Science books don't change either. They simply replace them with updated versions. The arguments for God in the world are not scientific. Science argues against the existence of God for the most part.100% agreed! but this is whether the bible has the authority to teach such things, the arguments for "God" in the world are not scriptural they are scientific, mans sciences change almost day by day, but the bible remains the same.
Thats the point. How do you know these things are not the mere teachings of man unless you accpet the bible as the inerrant word of God. You seem to look at the world for support of the bible! Where does it say we should do this in the scriptures?
I see a serious flaw in your logic elman. A couple of posts back I used Matthew 23:33, you couldn’t understand why I used that text so I thought I’d explain it a bit better now.elman said:Or I could argue that is not from God or at least it is not in the sense you are interpreting it.
elman said:If I believe that God never lies, then I have reason to disbelieve a so called scripture that says God sent lying spirits from His throne to decieve men. How did the authority of the entire scripture get established? Who established it? When?
So is your interpretation the same as the Pharisee's or is mine, if my interpretation is we should be loving each other and not killing each other? It was not the pick and choose parts of scripture that got the Pharisees in trouble with Jesus. It was their being unloving to people and being hypocrites and it was not misinterpretation of scripture that was their problem but their actions in an effort to preserve their position of power. My interpretation of Jesus Chirst is not the same as the Pharisees.I see a serious flaw in your logic elman. A couple of posts back I used Matthew 23:33, you couldn’t understand why I used that text so I thought I’d explain it a bit better now.
That text has Jesus telling those disobedient Scribes and Pharisees that they couldn’t escape the judgement of Gehenna, they interpreted Jesus Christ as being a false prophet of the law, and they eventually played a part in his death. As we know Jesus fulfilled everything written about him proving them to be utterly wrong, now if we follow your logic those Pharisees were completely innocent of any blame, all they did was interpret the scriptures their way, accepting what sounded good, and disregarding what sounded bad!
According to you the bible is a pick ‘n’ mix of truth and the Pharisees decided to not pick the parts that taught that Jesus was the messiah, but chose to pick the parts that they liked the sound of. Where they wrong for killing the greatest man to ever live? If so why?
Yes God has always allowed us to do the wrong thing. Read closer, this lying spirit came from the throne of God and was on a mission from God, not just allowed by God.If you’re referring to 1kings 22:23 then a quick lesson in Hebrew may well be needed. There it says that God put a lying spirit in to them, but the Hebrew verb “put” is often translated as “allowed”, “permitted”. Etc. Jehovah has been allowing wickedness for the last 6000 years and this verse explains that.
I disagree. I think it is a weak faith that is not willing to think for yourself and wants someone to tell you what is true and what is not.P.S. The bible gets it’s authority from it’s inerrant contents, if there are errors then the whole bible in untrustworthy and our faith in it is easily crushed by questions from opposes such as “are you sure that’s the part that God authored”, it’s a very weak faith!!!
.The bible does contain some copyist errors in the early books, but these just involve the transmission of numbers (not the book)through hundreds of years of transmission as their numbers were written using dots that easily faded and became unreadable. The languages of the bible are not made up of dots but comprehensible words that were distintive and unique and to date have not become unreadable
You must admit that it does sound like your interpretation of the scripture was very similar to the Pharisees seeing that Jesus never made excuses for scripture but used the scriptures to reason logically with the people he was teaching.elman said:So is your interpretation the same as the Pharisee's or is mine, if my interpretation is we should be loving each other and not killing each other? It was not the pick and choose parts of scripture that got the Pharisees in trouble with Jesus. It was their being unloving to people and being hypocrites and it was not misinterpretation of scripture that was their problem but their actions in an effort to preserve their position of power. My interpretation of Jesus Chirst is not the same as the Pharisees.
Allowed by the throne of God, or Gods mission to allow wickedness for a time. Whats the problem here elman?elman said:Yes God has always allowed us to do the wrong thing. Read closer, this lying spirit came from the throne of God and was on a mission from God, not just allowed by God.
Everything you profess to believe is weak because it rests on the premise that YOU are correct that God authored the scripture that YOU believe in, that basically means that your faith rests on the chance that you are right!!!!!!elman said:I disagree. I think it is a weak faith that is not willing to think for yourself and wants someone to tell you what is true and what is not.
25%! Who on earth told you that? Lets not forget the bible was not the only thing to be written in original Hebrew.elman said:That is only one of the reasons for errors. Another is such things as we do not even know the defintions of some 25% of the original Hebrew and must guess at the defintion of some words based entirly on context. Note I said guess. There are many reasons for the errors that exist and it does not serve the cause of Christianity to know of these errors and deny their existence based on remaining true to a doctrine of man that the Bible is inerrant.
I don't admit Jesus was unhappy with them for picking and choosing out of scripture. Jesus was unhappy with them for being hypocritical and unloving.You must admit that it does sound like your interpretation of the scripture was very similar to the Pharisees seeing that Jesus never made excuses for scripture but used the scriptures to reason logically with the people he was teaching.
It was not erroneous doctrine that was the problem for the Pharasees.Yes it was the “pick and choose” parts that got then into trouble elman, they thought that the messiah had come to “fulfil the law and finish off sin” in their way. They misinterpreted the scriptures and finally had their part in killing the Son of God. Your argument was that God would forgive us for erroneous doctrine, did God hint that these one would be forgiven???
If a lying spirit is sent from God and His thone, why would that not be a mission for God?Allowed by the throne of God, or God’s mission to allow wickedness for a time. What’s the problem here elman?
BTW, where do you get “mission” in this verse?
My faith does rest on the assumption that God is loving and that He created me to me loving. What does your faith rest on that is contrary to that?Everything you profess to believe is weak because it rests on the premise that YOU are correct that God authored the scripture that YOU believe in, that basically means that your faith rests on the chance that you are right!!!!!!
That was a percentage I read, I think from some notes in the NIV. What percentage do you claim we don't now know the meaning of and have to guess at? Do you believe there are no original Hebrew words the meaning of which has been lost in antiquity?25%! Who on earth told you that? Lets not forget the bible was not the only thing to be written in original Hebrew.
elaman said:I don't admit Jesus was unhappy with them for picking and choosing out of scripture. Jesus was unhappy with them for being hypocritical and unloving.
Thats about all your faith does rest on elman, therefore its weak. My faith rests also on Jehovahs power, his perfect knowledge, his right to rule, his sovereignty, his Justice etc. I dont stop at a wishy washy faith in God that may or may not be true, my faith is complete, it needs some fine tuning but the foundation is well established.elman said:My faith does rest on the assumption that God is loving and that He created me to me loving. What does your faith rest on that is contrary to that?
.
0%, as the entire Hebrew text was translated thousands of years ago into Greek, commonly known as the Septuagint, therefore original meanings could have easily been disputed among the early Greek/Hebrew speaking Christians they werent! This was an original copy from one language to another, at a time when both languages were spoken. Its like arguing that because someone translated German to English, the original meaning of the German was unknown.elman said:That was a percentage I read, I think from some notes in the NIV. What percentage do you claim we don't now know the meaning of and have to guess at? Do you believe there are no original Hebrew words the meaning of which has been lost in antiquity?
A religion is the place where people learn about God. It is not to defy God at all. Or it is not his religion.
No Killing people based on their disagreement with you on scripture is always bad.So when they killed the Son of God for being a false prophet according to their interpretation of the law, this was all good?
That is what my faith rests on and therefore it is storng.That’s about all your faith does rest on elman, therefore it’s weak.
Do you agree with James (3:2) that we all make many mistakes in our theology? Where are your mistakes? How do you know this is not one of them?My faith rests also on Jehovahs power, his perfect knowledge, his right to rule, his sovereignty, his Justice etc. I don’t stop at a wishy washy faith in God that may or may not be true, my faith is complete, it needs some fine tuning but the foundation is well established.
No it is not like that at all. I suspect there are original Hebrew words, the meaning of which have been lost and I suspect the reason you are unaware of this is you don't have a complete knowledge of history on this point.0%, as the entire Hebrew text was translated thousands of years ago into Greek, commonly known as the Septuagint, therefore original meanings could have easily been disputed among the early Greek/Hebrew speaking Christians… they weren’t! This was an original copy from one language to another, at a time when both languages were spoken. It’s like arguing that because someone translated German to English, the original meaning of the German was unknown.
Nope it all greek to me.perhaps you could tell everyone what the Greek meaning for the word "put" was?
I have noticed that a lot of the things that have been posted to support Universal Salvation have been taking out of context. Are there any full verses that support it?
(I am now Agnostic and awaiting icon change, therefore I might not be able to complete the conversation, I will PM).
And there is another verse taken out of context to support universal salvation.There are many, but this yielding of all power to Jesus as Lord of all is rather more emphasised in that it emphsises that all creation, not just men, is redeemed to God thrugh accepting Jesus eventually [just not all at the same time] :-
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
In what sense can that be out of context ?And there is another verse taken out of context to support universal salvation.
No, there is not a single verse that directly supports universal salvation
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