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There you go just making accusations. I do not speak for God. I only want people to see false religion for what it is and get out of her. That is what I am trying to do. You can twist what ever you want to say. I will never discredit God.
That is how false religions work. Thank you for your scripture. Notice how the churches fall into that verse also.You make many mistakes in your theology. James 3:2
Read Romans 14. Are you the strong or the weak Christian?That is how false religions work. Thank you for your scripture. Notice how the churches fall into that verse also.
Why are there so many factions. Because of the verse you just showed. The religions of the day don't make a stand for God. They're compliant, change there doctrine to fill pews. No one ever gets cast of a church for continuous bad behavior. Cheat on your wife all you want. Your still welcomed in this church. Smoke a cigarettes as soon as you leave church. But that is OK. As long as I ask for forgiveness every night means I can light one up tomorrow.
What ever.
Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "This day you will be with me in Paradise."
He did NOT say, "This day you will be sleeping, and the next, and the next, and the next. . ."
Paul spoke of being torn between the thought of his coming death, seeing it profitable to stay with those to whom he ministered, but also recognizing that in death he would be "absent from the body, and present with the Lord." (2 Cor. 5:8)
He said nothing about being "absent from the body and sleeping till judgment day."
Whether it does or not, He still said they were one.
No other way it can happen. Jesus said "EVERY knee will bow to me." Jehovah said "EVERY knee will bow to me." If EVERY knee will bow to Jesus, and EVERY knee will bow to God, and if God is one, then they have to be one and the same in essence. As for Jesus bowing, was that you or someone else while ago who implied He doesn't have knees now?
Well you forgot that he was a cloudy piller. And everyone there saw it. He did not show his face to Mosses. He spoke to him face to face. A blind man can talk face to face with someone and never see their face. Plus you forgot the rest of Exodus 33. Where no one sees my face and lives. Sure he let Moses see his brilliant back side. But never his face. Remember you have to cross reference. you can't take it precept upon precept, line by line.Apparently there is a scriptural exception to your dogmatic rule:
"And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
That's upper-case "S" in case you missed that too. It ties back to the previous verse about "keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." I want people to see false religion too, and false religion misses details like that one.
The quote comes from Ephesians. If you were familiar enough with Ephesians, you would not miss this and other similar statements that are evidences of Trinity also:
"For by Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (2:18)
"Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built toether for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." (2:20-22)
"And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Eph. 5:18-21)
This list would grow tremendously if expanded to include the other NT books.
If someone does not see this as Jesus speaking, they are wrong, and provably so from the context (isn't that what this thread is about?).
FIRST: REV. 1:8
The verse just before that clearly indicated who it is: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
So thanks for making the case for us that this is God, because it refers to Jesus, who is God..
Other versions do not contain the "first and last" part of the statement as found in the KJV, as you have noted. But if it did, it would not change the fact that it is Jesus speaking, as you will see.
THIRD: REV. 1:17-18
The entire portion from 1:10-18, from the NIV:
"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
The "Son of Man" reference is one indication, it was a phrase used by Jesus to refer to Himself. But the clearest indication is "I was dead." God was never dead. Jesus was. This is Jesus saying "I am the first and the last," not Jehovah. Not that it matters, as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one.".
Well, He certainly won't be seen, Jesus said so:
"I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)
The world does not see Him, and we do not need to see Him, for we know He is there living within. Jesus also said:
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:26)
But if you really want to see a place where the Holy Spirit was seen, check out the details of the story of Pentecost, with living tongues of fire that were visible as the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak with other languages. But the text does not specifically say the tongues of fire "were" the Holy Spirit, an objection I'm sure you'd raise, so we can't say without refutation that this is an instance of the Holy Spirit "being seen." But by golly, the word derives from ruach, meaning "breath" or "wind," and the sound of wind was heard as the Spirit arrived. Even so, we don't see wind, we see the results of wind. And that is what they saw--and boy did they EVER see the results of THIS wind.
So to answer, no, we can't say with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit has ever been seen. But He certainly speaks, but not with the normal method of sound waves picked up aurally. He speaks from within, which is where He dwells. In some places He is the "Spirit of God," in others He is the "Spirit of Christ." And all three are of the divine essence, that is, God..
Well, that's certainly an original! Gee, I don't think I can go along with a watered-down version of Jesus who knows who He is at age 12, and at age 30 has to go into the wilderness to "get His thoughts together." No, my Bible says the Spirit led Him into the wilderness...
I should hope not!Nobody owns God.
I consider myself to be on the strong side of faith. I'm trying to give up everything of this world. I even denounce my own country because they do not follow God. That takes courage. Everyone hates the guy that doesn't take his hat off for the pledge or anthem. Try it some time and see how it feels. Than you will know what it is like to be judged. When a man comes up to you and wants to punch you in the face and ruin your day at the races, for not taking off your hat. It will scare the poo out of you. But you keep doing what is right, stand tall and follow God.Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
You make many mistakes in your theology. James 3:2
Read Romans 14. Are you the strong or the weak Christian?
I take my hat off to you logical, I live in Britain and there's not the same strength of national pride as the US, Just keep in mind the long game, what we see now is only here for a little while longerI consider myself to be on the strong side of faith. I'm trying to give up everything of this world. I even denounce my own country because they do not follow God. That takes courage. Everyone hates the guy that doesn't take his hat off for the pledge or anthem. Try it some time and see how it feels. Than you will know what is like to be judged. When a man comes up to you and wants to punch you in the face and ruin your day at the races, for not taking off your hat. It will scare the poo out of you. But you keep doing what is right, stand tall and follow God.
I have allegiances to God. I will not pledge my allegiance to a flag. That is ridicules. It even sounds weird. Would you pledge your allegiance to a Bald Eagle?
Our country does not follow the laws of God. So I can't follow it. I will live here and raise my children in the nation of God. Not the nation of man. Gods nation is everywhere and has no boundaries.
...
God Bless
LT
Revelations1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelationn 1:8 εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
That is God Jehovah talking not Jesus. The Amen separates the verses. Another indication is the Almighty at the end.
This verse does not show that Jesus is God at all.
Who does the bible call the supreme Authority. Jehovah.
“Remember you have to cross reference. you can't take it precept upon precept, line by line.”
Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Yes he always knew who he was. But he didn't have all the knowledge of his pre-existence until the Holy Spirit came down on him as a dove.
Well also if he knew everything, why did the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) have to descend on him.
If Jesus is God why did he talk from heaven and compliment himself?
And therein lies the tale. You choose that which "you" prefer. The NWT is far worse than the KJV you criticize, twisting words to make them fit a preconceived doctrine that is contrary to genuine Christian faith. I could go into much more detail, but since you obviously will choose that which you prefer over anything I or anyone else might say to you, I'm afraid my involvement in this discussion has ended.I prefer the NWT version.
The Creator-a spirit-non physical entity.I should hope not!
You use "God" in a singular referece so who is he?
I consider myself to be on the strong side of faith. I'm trying to give up everything of this world. I even denounce my own country because they do not follow God. That takes courage. Everyone hates the guy that doesn't take his hat off for the pledge or anthem. Try it some time and see how it feels. Than you will know what it is like to be judged. When a man comes up to you and wants to punch you in the face and ruin your day at the races, for not taking off your hat. It will scare the poo out of you. But you keep doing what is right, stand tall and follow God.
I have allegiances to God. I will not pledge my allegiance to a flag. That is ridicules. It even sounds weird. Would you pledge your allegiance to a Bald Eagle?
Our country does not follow the laws of God. So I can't follow it. I will live here and raise my children in the nation of God. Not the nation of man. Gods nation is everywhere and has no boundaries.
Are you trying to say I judge people. I don't. As far as this world goes you are an excellent person. We might get along great in person. You do sound like a caring individual.
But I will judge your religion. That is my God given right.
He told us not to be snared.
God Bless
LT
Sorry, but you cannot interpret as you choose, remember?
Your words, not mine. You may separate and parse and micro-scrutinize all you wish, it is Jesus who speaks in Rev. 1, just as it is Jesus who speaks in Revelation 22:12-13:
And where in Scripture, pray tell, do you find this wonderful information? Sure must be obscure, I’ve never seen it.
I made no claim that He “knew everything.” I was simply refuting your unsupportable claim that Jesus went into the wilderness “to get His thoughts together.” Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time, even after enduring beating and crucifixion.
He didn’t. That was God the Father. Or did you forget that Jesus “emptied Himself and took the form of a servant?” Or maybe you forgot that Jesus was sent by the Father, or that He was “begotten” rather than created? They are the same in essence but not the same in Person. Because of this, as stated before, what is said of one (referring to attributes) may be said of the other, the Holy Spirit included. In other things, there is a natural separation of what pertains to each. The Father did not die on the cross, Jesus does not know the time of His return but the Father does, etc. etc.
Trinity is often better explained by analogy, and one that works as well as any, is that of ice, water, and steam. The three are very different in many characteristics: one is liquid, one is solid, one is gaseous. Yet they are all the same in essence, being made up of H2O.
Someone might try to argue they cannot be the same, for one is solid and hard and may be grasped; one is liquid and may be contained in measurable quantities, but is less able to be handled and held; and the other is far less tangible in nature. Yet waht it all boils down to (or freezes, as the case may be), they are all the exact same substance and essence.
In like manner, you raise objections based on the manifestations of each, while the basic essence of which they subsist as deity, is the same for all three..
And therein lies the tale. You choose that which "you" prefer. The NWT is far worse than the KJV you criticize, twisting words to make them fit a preconceived doctrine that is contrary to genuine Christian faith. I could go into much more detail, but since you obviously will choose that which you prefer over anything I or anyone else might say to you, I'm afraid my involvement in this discussion has ended.
Creator?The Creator-a spirit-non physical entity.
Thank you brother.I take my hat off to you logical, I live in Britain and there's not the same strength of national pride as the US, Just keep in mind the long game, what we see now is only here for a little while longer
Think Jehovah.
God is a spirit. That means He is not physical nor part of this physical universe.Creator?
How do you define a "spirit", i thought is was a strong drink.
So God is an invisable Liquor!
1.a distilled or spirituous beverage, as brandy or whiskey, as distinguished from a fermented beverage, as wine or beer.
Dictionary.com
Do we take your word for this or can you prove it without using sourses that are "tainted by man"?God is a spirit. That means He is not physical nor part of this physical universe.
Sorry, but you cannot interpret as you choose, remember?
Your words, not mine. You may separate and parse and micro-scrutinize all you wish, it is Jesus who speaks in Rev. 1, just as it is Jesus who speaks in Revelation 22:12-13:
And therein lies the tale. You choose that which "you" prefer. The NWT is far worse than the KJV you criticize, twisting words to make them fit a preconceived doctrine that is contrary to genuine Christian faith. I could go into much more detail, but since you obviously will choose that which you prefer over anything I or anyone else might say to you, I'm afraid my involvement in this discussion has ended.
The entire portion from 1:10-18, from the NIV:
"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
I was sitting and thinking. Didn't Rev. Wayne use a verse from a different bible that he preferred. So I went back through the post. Sure enough.
Rev. Wayne. I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander with you.
Why can you use verses from different bibles that you prefer and as soon as someone else does you get all pouty? Why is that?
Is that not hypocritical?
Notice the comma in two different places. Well it changes the meaning of the whole verse. I prefer the NWT version. This is why.
I made no claim that He knew everything. I was simply refuting your unsupportable claim that Jesus went into the wilderness to get His thoughts together. Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time, even after enduring beating and crucifixion.
You act like Jesus didn't have human qualities. He did. A lot of them. He was human physically. When they cut him he felt it. He was just as frail as any human today. Physically anyways. When somthing was sad he weeped. When somthing was happy he laughed. But in the same sense he was more than human. The parts of him that were not physical. They were of divine origin.
But here. You know this verse I'm sure, but it really shows Jesus's vulnerabilities as a human. To say he never had human attribute is ridiculas.
Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time.
I choose the one that makes logical sense. You can think that the theif was in heaven before Jesus. That's fine, even if it doesn't make sense.
Why can't you discuss the bible with me?
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