Take The Tiktaalik Challenge

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

Did Neil Shubin effectively use ToE to find Tiktaalik roseae, or was he just lucky?

For those of you who are unfamiliar with T. roseae, or haven't read "Your Inner Fish," here are some links:

Tiktaalik roseae: Home
Tiktaalik roseae: Meet Tiktaalik
Tiktaalik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tiktaalik roseae (fossil animal) -- Encyclopedia Britannica
What has the head of a crocodile and the gills of a fish?

Herman Hedning · Nov 18, 2013

What? Do you mean he and his team didn't randomly decide to go to one of the most remote and inhospitable areas on earth to randomly search for random fossils that they had randomly predicted would randomly be found in that exact random spot? Really?

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

Herman Hedning said:
What? Do you mean he and his team didn't randomly decide to go to one of the most remote and inhospitable areas on earth to randomly search for random fossils that they had randomly predicted would randomly be found in that exact random spot? Really?

Unfortunately, it's what creo's would have you believe.

Oncedeceived · Nov 18, 2013

HitchSlap said:
Did Neil Shubin effectively use ToE to find Tiktaalik roseae, or was he just lucky?

For those of you who are unfamiliar with T. roseae, or haven't read "Your Inner Fish," here are some links:

Tiktaalik roseae: Home
Tiktaalik roseae: Meet Tiktaalik
Tiktaalik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tiktaalik roseae (fossil animal) -- Encyclopedia Britannica
What has the head of a crocodile and the gills of a fish?

How does one account for tetrapod trackways in beach sediments that predate even Tiktaalik by 10 million years?

Four feet in the past: trackways pre-date earliest body fossils

The discovery of fossil trackways made by four-legged land vertebrates (tetrapods) almost 400 million years ago will cause a significant reappraisal of our understanding of tetrapod origins. The finds, reported by Per Ahlberg and colleagues, come from Zachelmie Quarry in the Holy Cross Mountains of Poland. Some of the tracks are so well preserved as to permit detailed examination of the foot morphology, which resembles that of the early, primitive tetrapod Ichthyostega. But it is their age that makes these tracks so special: 18 million years older than the earliest known tetrapod body fossils, and 10 million years older than the oldest elpistostegids Tiktaalik , Panderichthys and their relatives, seen as transitional forms between fishes and tetrapods. The finds suggests that the elpistostegids that we know were late-surviving relics rather than direct transitional forms, and they highlight just how little we know of the earliest history of land vertebrates.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7277/edsumm/e100107-01.html

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
How does one account for tetrapod trackways in beach sediments that predate even Tiktaalik by 10 million years?

Four feet in the past: trackways pre-date earliest body fossils

The discovery of fossil trackways made by four-legged land vertebrates (tetrapods) almost 400 million years ago will cause a significant reappraisal of our understanding of tetrapod origins. The finds, reported by Per Ahlberg and colleagues, come from Zachelmie Quarry in the Holy Cross Mountains of Poland. Some of the tracks are so well preserved as to permit detailed examination of the foot morphology, which resembles that of the early, primitive tetrapod Ichthyostega. But it is their age that makes these tracks so special: 18 million years older than the earliest known tetrapod body fossils, and 10 million years older than the oldest elpistostegids Tiktaalik , Panderichthys and their relatives, seen as transitional forms between fishes and tetrapods. The finds suggests that the elpistostegids that we know were late-surviving relics rather than direct transitional forms, and they highlight just how little we know of the earliest history of land vertebrates.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7277/edsumm/e100107-01.html

You just did.

Oncedeceived · Nov 18, 2013

HitchSlap said:
You just did.

So I was mistaken in thinking that you were citing this as a transitional then?

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
So I was mistaken in thinking that you were citing this as a transitional then?

No, T. roseae is definitely transitional. Why would you suggest otherwise?

Oncedeceived · Nov 18, 2013

HitchSlap said:
No, T. roseae is definitely transitional. Why would you suggest otherwise?

Did you read what I posted?

EternalDragon · Nov 18, 2013

Herman Hedning said:
What? Do you mean he and his team didn't randomly decide to go to one of the most remote and inhospitable areas on earth to randomly search for random fossils that they had randomly predicted would randomly be found in that exact random spot? Really?

If I know where other people have found T-Rex fossils, I will go to similar spots to find one. It's no mystery or a prediction.

Same with gold. If I want to find some gold I will go to Sutters Mill, California. Not central Ohio. (Interestingly back then some of the gold could be found just lying on the ground.)

Herman Hedning · Nov 18, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
How does one account for tetrapod trackways in beach sediments that predate even Tiktaalik by 10 million years?

Four feet in the past: trackways pre-date earliest body fossils

The discovery of fossil trackways made by four-legged land vertebrates (tetrapods) almost 400 million years ago will cause a significant reappraisal of our understanding of tetrapod origins. The finds, reported by Per Ahlberg and colleagues, come from Zachelmie Quarry in the Holy Cross Mountains of Poland. Some of the tracks are so well preserved as to permit detailed examination of the foot morphology, which resembles that of the early, primitive tetrapod Ichthyostega. But it is their age that makes these tracks so special: 18 million years older than the earliest known tetrapod body fossils, and 10 million years older than the oldest elpistostegids Tiktaalik , Panderichthys and their relatives, seen as transitional forms between fishes and tetrapods. The finds suggests that the elpistostegids that we know were late-surviving relics rather than direct transitional forms, and they highlight just how little we know of the earliest history of land vertebrates.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7277/edsumm/e100107-01.html

What does that have to do with the OP?

lasthero · Nov 18, 2013

If I know where other people have found T-Rex fossils, I will go to similar spots to find one. It's no mystery or a prediction.

Except it isn't like that at all. No one had found Tiktaalik beforehand.

He didn't look in a place where other Tiktaalik specimens had been found, he went to a place where he predicted Tiktaalik would be, based on his knowledge of fish and amphibian evolution. It was what they expected to find, where they expected to find it, based on predictions that would only hold true if amphibians evolved from fish.

Herman Hedning · Nov 18, 2013

EternalDragon said:
If I know where other people have found T-Rex fossils, I will go to similar spots to find one. It's no mystery or a prediction.

Same with gold. If I want to find some gold I will go to Sutters Mill, California. Not central Ohio. (Interestingly back then some of the gold could be found just lying on the ground.)

That's fine, except that almost no one had looked for fossils on Ellesmere island before, and no one had previously found any Tiiktaliks there or anywhere else. ETA: Ninjaed by lasthero.

sfs · Nov 18, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
Did you read what I posted?

I did. What you posted doesn't mean the fossil wasn't transitional. It means it wasn't ancestral to later tetrapods, but it did have the mix of ancestral and derived features that characterize a transitional fossil.

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
Did you read what I posted?

My apologies. I thought you were familiar with "convergent evolution."

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

EternalDragon said:
If I know where other people have found T-Rex fossils, I will go to similar spots to find one. It's no mystery or a prediction.

Same with gold. If I want to find some gold I will go to Sutters Mill, California. Not central Ohio. (Interestingly back then some of the gold could be found just lying on the ground.)

All you had to do was click on just one of the links I posted. I suspect your post might have looked different if you had.

lasthero · Nov 18, 2013

HitchSlap said:
All you had to do was click on just one of the links I posted. I suspect your post might have looked different if you had.

I doubt it.

He's had this explained to him before. He either forgot the facts or he doesn't care.

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

lasthero said:
I doubt it.

He's had this explained to him before. He either forgot the facts or he doesn't care.

Since he's a creationist, I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Oncedeceived · Nov 18, 2013

lasthero said:
I doubt it.

He's had this explained to him before. He either forgot the facts or he doesn't care.

mistake

Oncedeceived · Nov 18, 2013

HitchSlap said:
My apologies. I thought you were familiar with "convergent evolution."

I am familiar with convergent evolution. Please explain to me what you are claiming with the Tiktaalik fossils. I am getting confused to the claims being made here. I am serious and not trying to confuse the issue.

HitchSlap · Nov 18, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
He is a she and what was explained to me before?

Those comment were directed at eternal dragon.

Take The Tiktaalik Challenge

Did Dr. Shubin use ToE to discover T. roseae, or was he just lucky?

Predictive capabilities of ToE works!

Just a lucky guy!

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