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Take the Jesus Challenge

JGG

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Not that I'm a big fan of the concept of the multiverse outside of comic books and Star Trek, but this example is kinda lacking. Assumption 1: There are coins outside of the auditorium (yes, that is the assumpton being made. It might not be true, but for the purposes of this thought experiment we have to assume that). Assumption 2: The coins are flipped 10,000 times each (does not fit. Coins may be flipped an infinite number of times). Assumption 3: The coin flips are unique to each coin (not necessarily an assumption. There's no reason to assume that two coins don't get identical patterns, and it's redundant if there are infinite flips).


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JGG

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They work backwards, with the Bible as their basis of scientific knowledge. Pure science should examine the evidence in its own light; not according to what some old religious text says. Just look at evolution. Secular science tells us that we evolved over hundreds of millions of years, continually adapting to our environment. Christian scientists are forced to add God into this equation by such silly terms as "macro" and "micro" evolution.

I don't think this is true. I know many Christian non-scientists like Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, and Ray Comfort use these terms, and make the distinction, but they're generally pretty ignorant of science, and certainly aren't real scientists, or scientific researchers. actually it seems to me the concepts of micro and macro evolution were developed by a lawyer.

There are a few genuine scientists who look into distant concepts of intelligent design, but for the most part these people look at it from a different angle, and see it as a precursor to evolution, not in opposition to it. However, those investigations weren't going well last time I looked into it. I also tend not to agree with their methods for the same reasons you outline above, but I won't say the concept itself is invalid because of it.

That being said, I don't need to trust Christian scientists. In fact, a rule of thumb is that I only trust that scientists are being accurate in presenting their data. I don't trust that the data of any scientist supports their hypothesis. Any scientist can be wrong. Any scientist can be biased. Any scientist can make an error in judgment or logic. It's up to their peers in the scientific community to oversee their work, and correct them when they've made a mistake. It doesn't matter if they're Christian, atheist, or any other religious background. If everyone does their job correctly, it should all work out in the end. That's what peer review is all about.

Intelligent design was thrown out of a US court as a scientific theory several years back.

To be fair, a US court does not have the authority to throw out a scientific theory, even a really bad one. What it threw out was religious doctrine, disguised as science, which was intended to be taught in public schools, which was seen as imposing religion on students.

Intelligent design is a long way from validated as a scientific theory, but it's not yet invalid either. It's very difficult to actually show ID because (a) it involves investigating the supernatural through natural means (b) in order to prove that ID occurred, one must set up a method which could potentially disprove that ID occurred. That's tough to do.

In other words: It is still possible that Intelligent Design could be true in one of it's suggested forms. It's hard to imagine right now, but it's possible. Of course, New Earth Creationism is pretty much right out.


Sorry, I've started teaching a methodology class. It's good practice for me to try to explain these concepts.
 
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razeontherock

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The difference between a non-Christian scientist and a Christian scientist is that the Christian scientist interprets data according to the Bible; he/she already has the "facts" so they have to interpret any empirical data based on the Bible.

Pure bigotry, prejudice and ignorance.
 
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razeontherock

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Maybe you're right. It depends on their field of study I suppose. I'm thinking mostly of Christian biologists, archaeologists, etc. Their "findings" are often in conflict with those of non-religious scientists.

And this is where peer review breaks down, currently. On certain topics like raised here, anyone not towing the line is dismissed. This destroys the objectivity the scientific method is designed to preserve.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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And this is where peer review breaks down, currently. On certain topics like raised here, anyone not towing the line is dismissed. This destroys the objectivity the scientific method is designed to preserve.

Pure bigotry, prejudice and ignorance. Peer review works. Look at the recent discovery of neutrinos apparently breaking the light speed barrier. Other groups are now testing the results and doing tests of their own - this is peer reviewing.

Also, you slate secular science as not being objective; are you saying Christian science is purely unbiased?
 
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JGG

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Pure bigotry, prejudice and ignorance. Peer review works. Look at the recent discovery of neutrinos apparently breaking the light speed barrier. Other groups are now testing the results and doing tests of their own - this is peer reviewing.

Also, you slate secular science as not being objective; are you saying Christian science is purely unbiased?

I don't think we even need to go there. All that needs to be said is that peer review works a lot better than it's alternative: "Hey, just trust me on this one."
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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I don't think we even need to go there. All that needs to be said is that peer review works a lot better than it's alternative: "Hey, just trust me on this one."

Exactly. If we get rid of the peer review system, then we just end up going back to the dark ages when the Catholic Church told everyone how "science" worked.
 
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salida

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JGG

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Secular scientists have an agenda-interpreting their data with the possibility without a god being involved. Saying live matter came from dead matter.

Please understand: We have to. Science is the study of the natural universe around us. God, if such a being exists, necessarily exists outside of the natural universe. God, as It is explained to us, sits outside the limits of what science can observe. So how can we possibly include God?

If we want to somehow include God in our data, we have to start by scientifically studying God Itself. We have to operationalize God (in other words, define God in naturalistic terms) which by all accounts we cannot do. If we want to include God in a scientific study, then we also have to set up the means by which we can definitively prove that God doesn't exist, which by any stretch of the imagination we cannot do. Then God has to pass that test we set up. If God were to fail that test, what do you think would happen?

The truth is, I really don't think religious people want God included in the scientific purview any more than I do.


...Okay. That may be true. I don't see why it would be relevant.

Peer Review
http://creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review

Peer Review: Creationism, Science and Peer Review
1) Does not guarantee quality or correctness
2) Does not prevent fraud
3) Is not objective
4) Can lead to bias
5) Can lead to censorship

Firstly, this is at best misleading. Clearly I'm not going to tell you that peer review is perfect, but what do you see as a viable alternative to peer-review? Please do not parrot other articles, just give us your personal view on it.

I can't help but notice that other than by Creationists, peer-review is still considered a necessity.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Why Abiogenesis is impossible
http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp

Peer Review
http://creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review

Peer Review: Creationism, Science and Peer Review
1) Does not guarantee quality or correctness
2) Does not prevent fraud
3) Is not objective
4) Can lead to bias
5) Can lead to censorship

And Christian science can't lead to bias? Christian science does not prevent fraud? Is it objective, when it has the Bible's "integrity" to protect? Also, for centuries, the Catholic Church censored any science and killed, or persecuted, anyone who dared investigate anything that came to a different conclusion than what the Bible teaches. Christian science, or any religious scientific study, has a vested interest in protecting its ancient teachings and is therefore, by default, more biased than secular science.

Finally, abiogenesis is not impossible because it happened. We are here, whether you believe God did or something else did it.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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I can't help but notice that other than by Creationists, peer-review is still considered a necessity.

This. Also, I've noticed that Creationists are all too happy to jump aboard the peer-reviewed science wagon when something is discovered that might support their views. Creationists are the worst kind of hypocrites.
 
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SyrInSeattle

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A pastor once told me that he had a friend who was an atheist. His friend thought that believing in a god or Jesus was childish and he didn't see a point in it. So this pastor asked his friend to try living life as a Christian for one month and see if he changed his opinion. His friend agreed. He spent one month praying and reading the bible regularly and going to church. He made an honest effort to love Jesus and to show kindness and compassion to his neighbors. The next month he was baptized and became a Christian.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer makes the point in The Cost of Discipleship that obedience and faith are inseparable. Not only does faithin God lead to obedience to God, but obedience to God leads to faith in him.

I'm not asking anyone to post their opinions to this thread, though you may if you wish. And I'm not "daring" anyone to meet this challenge. But if you are a non-believer or struggling with doubts about Christianity, and this is something you'd be willing to undertake, I encourage you to do so. Not for me. Partially for Jesus, but mostly for you.


I don't know... In my experience, this sort of orientation leads many atheists to become Unitarian Universalist Atheists - people who love what the stories of Jesus are and say, what he stood for (social justice and radical compassion, for instance) but are not certain about the infallibility of the Bible as a source of truth. There's a middle in between here and there.
 
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JGG

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Thanks for your kind words.
But those who pretend to be looking for the truth although they arent, are worse unfortunately.

Those who claim to have truth, rarely do.

And what does it matter anyways? The bible has no flaw, because it is inspired by God, but Science is of course full of flaws and misunderstandings.

If I may: science does not appear to have any flaw. Scientists have flaws and misunderstandings. The same also seems to be true of Chrisitians.
 
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JGG

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Those who claim to have truth, rarely do.

[/QUOTE

Not necessarily. And same can apply for you here, which means that you dont have it either.

Well, I think I covered "not necessarily" with the use of the word "rarely." Also, I do not claim to have "truth," I only know what I believe to be true. If some of that ends up being "the truth" I will not be shocked.
 
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JGG

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That can only apply in philosohphical questions.
But if you dont know the truth, then you must be searching for it, and therefore you cant be an atheist.

Sure I can. Why can't I? Is this comment suggesting that only people who believe in God can be searching for truth? Is this a comment on the nature or character of atheists en masse? What assumption is this particular comment based on?

Like many other atheists, my only claim is that I don't believe in God. Where in that statement is there a position on truth that would suggest that I'm not looking for it?
 
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GA777

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Because if you seriously looked, you would have been a "seeker" already and would have at least started to doubt Atheism. But of course, if you seriously look for God in the preferred way for him , you would not doubt Atheism but know that it is wrong and would of course, get enough proof about God's existance.
 
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