Taboos

[FreeSpirit74]

Speaking of rape, the idea that it's somehow the victim's fault ('she was asking for it') needs to go.

See, I agree with that, until we come to the issue of women getting so drunk they can't even remember what happened. They woke up with their clothes off in a guy's room, or whereever and, boom, automatically they start screaming they were raped, and naming names (meanwhile they get to stay anonymous, even if their claims are proven to be false). They can't even prove whether or not they even said "no", they were so tanked at the time.

There was a case last year at Albany State where that happened to a freshman girl. She had gotten drunk in her dorm room, and went to a dorm party, drank some more, and ended up hangng out with 2 guys she didn't even know in their room watching TV (and drinking some more). Well, you can guess what happened from there. Local public opinion was actually rather weighted against her, because she acted very irresponsibly. She certainly didn't get any sympathy from me, because she chose to put herself into the position and situation she ended up being in. No one forced her to drink herself to the point of being incoherant.

 

[cantata]

The fact that someone put themselves in a compromising situation doesn't make it okay to take advantage of them, though. If she was raped then the people who raped her should be prosecuted, however drunk she was.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

The fact that someone put themselves in a compromising situation doesn't make it okay to take advantage of them, though. If she was raped then the people who raped her should be prosecuted, however drunk she was.

The point is, though, how can she prove that she did or didn't consent, if she was drunk to the point of passing out? She has the burden of proving whether the sex happened when she was passed out, in which case she was unable to consent (and hence, it is rape), or whether it happened beforehand and she in fact did consent to it and just deosn't remember it happening because she passed out afterwards (in which case, it is not rape).

I'm not saying it is "OK" to take advantage of someone. But I have also read too many accounts similar to this one for me to get worked up about it or to waste my sympathies on these women who don't stop and think to foresee the possible consequences of their actions (mixing copious amounts of alcohol with strangers you don't know you can trust). I stayed out of the drinking scene when I was in college (and alcohol was banned on campus) and, even now, I will only drink with a select number of individuals who I have known for years, and I never drink to the point of being incoherant, especially when I am out at a bar. Women with any sort of class never drink to the point where they have to put their head on the bar, because they are advertising themselves as being an "easy target" when they do that. I avoid a lot of trouble that way. People need to be taught to temper their freedom with taking responsibility for their choices, and I don't see that happening enough in this day and age.

 

[stan1980]

The point is, though, how can she prove that she did or didn't consent, if she was drunk to the point of passing out? She has the burden of proving whether the sex happened when she was passed out, in which case she was unable to consent (and hence, it is rape), or whether it happened beforehand and she in fact did consent to it and just deosn't remember it happening because she passed out afterwards (in which case, it is not rape).

I'm not saying it is "OK" to take advantage of someone. But I have also read too many accounts similar to this one for me to get worked up about it or to waste my sympathies on these women who don't stop and think to foresee the possible consequences of their actions (mixing copious amounts of alcohol with strangers you don't know you can trust). I stayed out of the drinking scene when I was in college (and alcohol was banned on campus) and, even now, I will only drink with a select number of individuals who I have known for years, and I never drink to the point of being incoherant, especially when I am out at a bar. Women with any sort of class never drink to the point where they have to put their head on the bar, because they are advertising themselves as being an "easy target" when they do that. I avoid a lot of trouble that way. People need to be taught to temper their freedom with taking responsibility for their choices, and I don't see that happening enough in this day and age.

I have to agree with these sentiments. It's a bad old world out there filled with deviants, thugs and animals. Getting blind drunk in 2 strangers home is just not sensible. I'm not saying anyone deserves to get raped, but sometimes you can bring it on yourself. In the same way, is if i left my front door wide open, i'm just asking to be burgled. Of course the burglars and rapists still deserve to be punished, but lets not make their lives easy for them.

 

[cantata]

I have to agree with these sentiments. It's a bad old world out there filled with deviants, thugs and animals. Getting blind drunk in 2 strangers home is just not sensible. I'm not saying anyone deserves to get raped, but sometimes you can bring it on yourself. In the same way, is if i left my front door wide open, i'm just asking to be burgled. Of course the burglars and rapists still deserve to be punished, but lets not make their lives easy for them.

Well yes, of course. You shouldn't put yourself in a compromising position, but nor should you get away with it just because (s)he was drunk.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

but nor should you get away with it just because (s)he was drunk.

No one is saying that. But these cases are very hard to prove when there has been alcohol usage on the part of the victim, because her judgment, mental faculties, and ability to coherently make decisions is impaired (like the ability to give or withold consent and remember doing so). It becomes a he said, she said type scenario with no real, concrete proof.

If she was stone-cold sober, it would be a different story. But she wasn't.

I am a hard-line believer that there are too many women who are lax on keeping themselves safe. I just had an issue crop up just now where I had to put my foot down on that for myself. I work a night job, and they just called me to let me know I was scheduled for re-training classes starting Friday. I asked if I could be re-scheduled, due to the fact that my car just went into the shop this morning and I don't know how long I will be without it. Taking the bus home form my day job at 5:15 when it is still light out is one thing, but taking it home at 9:45 PM and then walking 4 blocks to get to my apartment is another (my night job is across the street from my day job). It's called "preventative maintenance" - stopping any bad **** before it has a chance to start.

Getting blind drunk in 2 strangers home is just not sensible.

Actually, it all happened on campus at Albany State University. She was drinking in her dorm room, went to a party in another dorm where she met the 2 roommates, and ended up in their their dorm room. I don't know that college's policy regarding alcohol in the dorms, because I never attended that school, but she was already breaking the law because she was only 18 and possessing and consuming alcohol. So, clearly, this girl has big issues with setting boundaries for herself.

 

[cantata]

No one is saying that. But these cases are very hard to prove when there has been alcohol usage on the part of the victim, because her judgment, mental faculties, and ability to coherently make decisions is impaired (like the ability to give or withold consent and remember doing so). It becomes a he said, she said type scenario with no real, concrete proof.

If she was stone-cold sober, it would be a different story. But she wasn't.

I'm not disputing any of this. I'm just saying that if someone's committed a crime, it doesn't matter how drunk the victim was - it's still wrong. That has nothing to do with how easy or difficult it is to prove that the crime was committed, or anything else.

And in any case, no one deserves to be raped because they did something silly like getting drunk around strangers. It's pretty harsh to say you have no sympathy for her at all.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

The point is, though, how can she prove that she did or didn't consent, if she was drunk to the point of passing out? She has the burden of proving whether the sex happened when she was passed out, in which case she was unable to consent (and hence, it is rape), or whether it happened beforehand and she in fact did consent to it and just deosn't remember it happening because she passed out afterwards (in which case, it is not rape).

No, you miss the point. It's not an issue of whether or not she consented (because, of course, she was so drunk she can't remember whether she consented or not). The issue is that if she was that drunk she could not have given informed consent, and thus any sex with her was rape. She was not in her 'right mind' and thus any consent she gave was not informed. She doesn't have to have passed out - she doesn't even have to have not given consent.

I agree that this is a difficult area - it makes the men present the 'guardians' of her sexuality. She could be begging them to do it, and if they do so, they can be charged with rape. The onus is on them to say "well, she's drunk, so we can't take her consent as informed consent". Since they're likely to have had a few drinks themselves, this sort of restraint seems unlikely. But "I was drunk" isn't a defense for them, which hardly seems fair.

 

[MrAtheist]

Rape is an interesting one because I know for a lot of years I just didn't want to hear any kind of excuse given to protect the side of the rapist. Over the years I hear stories of people being raped, from the horses mouth, and I am just shocked at the classification. Like people who have a forceful boyfriend and just don't resist out of fear...I can appreciate this stance to a degree, but if you don't object who's fault is it? Not to mention the fact that you're with a boyfriend who you explicitly don't trust.

The 'i got drunk and he raped me' bit is really tough...people shouldn't be getting drunk around people that they don't trust because not only are their stories faulty the next day, but they can't trust themselves when drunk to do the right thing and they don't have another person there to knock sense into them.

I think there may be some confusion on the issue of rape (outside of stat rape) in that some people think that not wanting it or not wanting it to have happened classifies as rape regardless of them not actually objecting to it at the time.

This all said, it's a horrible thing that this is even a topic of discussion because it makes people skeptical of real rape victims and it's really not a time when people want or should have to be to be treated skeptically.