Symbolism of the Seder Disproves Real Presence

[markme]

In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives – the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and it’s all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, “Wait! We’re not done,” and the disciples all wondered, “What is this? What is He doing?” And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.”

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

 

[Cappadocious]

You'd have to first establish that the Jews thought what there were doing at the Seder was merely a disconnected reference to something else.

"Symbol" doesn't mean "non-literal".

 

[IowaLutheran]

It is doubtful that the Last Supper was a Seder meal as we know it. For one, it is almost certain that the Haggadah, which has the instructions for the Seder, was not written until well after the time of Jesus. So, the language and actions of the Seder does not prove anything as to the Last Supper.

 

[Albion]

In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives – the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and it’s all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, “Wait! We’re not done,” and the disciples all wondered, “What is this? What is He doing?” And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.”

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

I don't think that conclusion follows logically. Not at all. It was apparently intended to be a Passover meal, although it's an open question as to whether it came off as one or not. But that doesn't really determine anything. Jesus was in the habit of taking familiar things and events and giving new meanings to them.

 

[annier]

In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives –

It is difficult to respond without understanding all this individual said. So working only on the above I can only assume somethings.
First, The above comments says nothing concerning Messiah and his disciples. Jesus the Christ are and his disciples are portrayed as just rabbinic (Pharisaic) Jews eating a passover, with their Rabbi.

the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and it’s all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, “Wait! We’re not done,” and the disciples all wondered, “What is this? What is He doing?” And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.”

He also did this.
John 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Just my thoughts on making these things out to be nothing more that Jew's keeping rabbinic Judaism.

Christ was more than a rabbi, to recite rabbinic examples. He was The ANOINTED ONE from heaven. To be a priest of the ORDER OF MELCHZEDEK.

29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

No this was not an ordinary Jewish Seder. I think the priestly ritual cleansing example are completely missed in that idea.
Ex 40:31 And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat:
Ex 40:32 When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

 

[Wigglesworth]

When was the seder finished?

It was finished when Jesus drank the fourth cup, the fruit of the vine, while he was on the cross. The sacrifice had been offered by him, and he drank of the cup, as he said he would, after "it is finished." So, the seder was a platform from which the Lord launched the New Testament sacrifice. We now eat the Body of Christ, which He creates and provides miraculously by grace, each time we eat the bread which he said was His body.

Under the Old Covenant, you had to eat the lamb. It was a real lamb, not a symbolic one made of soyburger. They ate the real sacrifice. We eat the real sacrifice. If we were not eating the real sacrifice, we would not be doing what they did.

 

[Albion]

Under the Old Covenant, you had to eat the lamb. It was a real lamb, not a symbolic one made of soyburger. They ate the real sacrifice. We eat the real sacrifice. If we were not eating the real sacrifice, we would not be doing what they did.

A reasonable person has to admit, though, that it's difficult to argue that the supper was a seder if all the elements needed for one were not present. We may call Christ a lamb, of course, but that doesn't make him one for purposes of the seder. That said, I don't think this affects the conclusion that the Eucharist involves the Real Presence.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

From what I've been told, many Jews do not believe the Seder is symbolic anyway, but a very real participation in the Exodus. A friend told me "You don't know if you're going to get out of Egypt alive." "Remember" meant something different than how we see it.

 

[Albion]

From what I've been told, many Jews do not believe the Seder is symbolic anyway, but a very real participation in the Exodus. A friend told me "You don't know if you're going to get out of Egypt alive." "Remember" meant something different than how we see it.

I don't know about that first part, but the bolded section above is something I've heard pointed out many times. I am convinced that it's true and that Jesus was saying something more than just "remember me when I'm gone."

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

You'd have to first establish that the Jews thought what there were doing at the Seder was merely a disconnected reference to something else.

"Symbol" doesn't mean "non-literal".

Exactly. And in point of fact, Jews believe that both in the Sabbath and in the Passover the boundaries between heaven and earth are blurred to the point where angels come to inhabit the home of the celebrants. There are specific prayers welcoming the "Sabbath angels."

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Exactly. And in point of fact, Jews believe that both in the Sabbath and in the Passover the boundaries between heaven and earth are blurred to the point where angels come to inhabit the home of the celebrants. There are specific prayers welcoming the "Sabbath angels."

Interesting - especially since we believe Angels to be present at the Divine Liturgy.

Mary

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Interesting - especially since we believe Angels to be present at the Divine Liturgy.

Mary

Exactly!

 

[Erose]

A wonderful book on this subject is Amazon.com: Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper eBook: Brant Pitre, Scott Hahn, Scott Hahn: Kindle Store

From his study of the Talmuds, what he stated was the Jews seen the Passover Meal as a re-presentation of the first and only Passover.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

A wonderful book on this subject is Amazon.com: Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper eBook: Brant Pitre, Scott Hahn, Scott Hahn: Kindle Store

From his study of the Talmuds, what he stated was the Jews seen the Passover Meal as a re-presentation of the first and only Passover.

Brant Pitre is a wonderful gift to the reading world.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Exactly. And in point of fact, Jews believe that both in the Sabbath and in the Passover the boundaries between heaven and earth are blurred to the point where angels come to inhabit the home of the celebrants. There are specific prayers welcoming the "Sabbath angels."

In one English Haggadah, this is read, "We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and the L-rd, our G-d, took us out from there with a strong hand and with an outstretched arm. If the Holy One, blessed be He, had not taken our fathers out of Egypt, then we, our children and our children's children would have remained enslaved to Pharaoh in Egypt...." Notice that the passage starts with an inclusive "WE". Throughout the Haggadah, there is a constant connection to the Israelites in Egypt. In fact, it is stated outright that, "In every generation a person is obligated to regard himself as if he had come out of Egypt, as it is said: "You shall tell your child on that day, it is because of this that the L-rd did for me when I left Egypt.""

Quotes from English Haggadah Text with Instructional Guide - Passover

 

[All Souls]

How would you respond to this argument?

For a start I would point out that symbols participate in that which they signify; thus yes, the bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ, and because they are symbols they participate in that which they signify and so Christ is really present.

 

[babylonisfalling]

In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives – the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and it’s all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, “Wait! We’re not done,” and the disciples all wondered, “What is this? What is He doing?” And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.”

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

That is clearly NOT how it's described in the Bible.
I think your friend was just trying too hard to win an argument.

 

[Michie]

*subscribing*