Symbolism of the Seder Disproves Real Presence

markme · Oct 14, 2013

In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and its all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, Wait! Were not done, and the disciples all wondered, What is this? What is He doing? And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

MessianicMommy · Oct 14, 2013

markme said:
How would you respond to this argument?

I would not engage. "So, some weather we're having!"

There are much bigger fish to fry than squabbling over denominational doctrine.

Lulav · Oct 14, 2013

CF hiccup~!http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/strongs.ashx?ll=g&t=kjv&sn=1691

Lulav · Oct 14, 2013

CF hiccup~!http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/strongs.ashx?ll=g&t=kjv&sn=1691

Lulav · Oct 14, 2013

CF hiccup~!
http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/strongs.ashx?ll=g&t=kjv&sn=1691

Lulav · Oct 14, 2013

markme said:
In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and its all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, Wait! Were not done, and the disciples all wondered, What is this? What is He doing? And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

I would refer them to John 13, there is only one symbolic thing done here.

1 Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. 5 After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, "Lord, are You washing my feet?" 7 Jesus answered and said to him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this." 8 Peter said to Him, "You shall never wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." 9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!" 10 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean." 12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

Azumos is the Greek word for unleavened bread, which is what they would be eating had it been Passover at sundown.

18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen : but that the scripture may be fulfilled , He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

The Greek word here is 'Artos', which means regular leavened bread or food, but there are other words for general food too.
8 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen : but that the scripture may be fulfilled , He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

ContraMundum · Oct 15, 2013

markme said:
In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives – the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and it’s all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, “Wait! We’re not done,” and the disciples all wondered, “What is this? What is He doing?” And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.”

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

A no brainer for me. Whatever He says, I take and accept. If He says it's His Body, then it is. End of discussion. If the Creator says something, then it is what it is. Any attempt to change the words by interpretation is to do violence to those words. I'd rather protect the words of Jesus than re-interpret them to suit my mere human logic. Let's also not forget that He is our Passover Lamb - and that lamb, according to the Law, must be eaten. On this point alone there words "this is my Body, this is my Blood" should be self evident as being more than a mere symbol.

Let's also not forget that the Greek word for remembrance is anamnesis- which is not remembrance in the sense of remembering a holiday or a birthday or where you put your car keys, but in the sense of a re-participation. Thus, at Pesach (Passover), we re-participate in the Exodus. So, for the disciple of Jesus, we don't merely remember the crucifixion of Jesus but participate in it, completely partaking in our Passover Lamb.

sevengreenbeans · Oct 15, 2013

Lulav said:
Azumos is the Greek word for unleavened bread, which is what they would be eating had it been Passover at sundown.

The Greek word here is 'Artos', which means regular leavened bread or food, but there are other words for general food too.

If it had been the Passover meal, and Yeshua was the Passover lamb killed (at the same time as all the other Passover lambs were slaughtered) then is it possible for Yeshua to be present for a Passover meal? Is it possible to eat the Passover sacrifice meal at its appointed time and "be" the Passover sacrifice? Was Yeshua keeping a different calendar? If Yeshua kept a different calendar, then was he keeping YHWH's appointed time of Pesach and killed on "someone else's" calendar date for Pesach? Or was Yeshua keeping Pesach on "someone else's" calendar date and killed at YHWH's appointed Pesach?

Lulav · Oct 15, 2013

I think that it was an interpolation by later scribes.

Reasons why:

Yeshua quoted Moses

Deut 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger , and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know ;
that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the L-RD doth man live .

by saying:

It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This is 'the word', and in John we read that 'the word became flesh'. This is what we are to eat of him, not a lamb or bread.

Secondly in John Yeshua says something that confuses the Jews who heard it. Remember the Torah teaches not to drink blood and not to eat humankind. This ties into what Moses was saying in Deut. about being fed from heaven.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard , and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is * of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead . 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof *, and not die . 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying , How can this man give us his flesh to eat ? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead : he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

And the Word was made flesh...............

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said , This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is his words that bring life. He was speaking a 'hard saying' because it sounded to them like he wanted them to eat his body and drink his blood as the heathens did to their gods. This they knew was forbidden so they didn't understand.

But what I believe he was saying was that he was the word and the word made flesh to be able for us to hear the word and not be afraid as that day at the mountain. But that word should be in us, that is how we become one with him and one with G-d. He is speaking of everlasting life, matza and wine do not extend you life one day, not one minute.

We are not to eat any blood, of any creature, for that is the life.

Everlasting life comes from 'eating and drinking' of the word of G-d, not eating human flesh, or a lamb, or unleavened bread or wine. it is the word that brings everlasting life, and this is the bread that came down from heaven.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2013

sevengreenbeans said:
If it had been the Passover meal, and Yeshua was the Passover lamb killed (at the same time as all the other Passover lambs were slaughtered) then is it possible for Yeshua to be present for a Passover meal? Is it possible to eat the Passover sacrifice meal at its appointed time and "be" the Passover sacrifice?

Good question, three answers.

1) This was the night before Pesach, and it was a normal kaddish (some EO's believe this)

2) The lambs were slaughtered already, and it just doesn't matter anyway. Yeshua is not a literal lamb with wool. It's the symbolism that has the drash.

3) The lambs will be slaughtered the next morning, meaning the same day as the Cross, and as above it doesn't matter because the symbolism/spiritual (true) carries the drash.

There's probably more answers too.

I skipped the alternative calendar bit, because I don't think there was one at the time.

Messianic Jewboy · Oct 16, 2013

ContraMundum said:
Good question, three answers.

1) This was the night before Pesach, and it was a normal kaddish (some EO's believe this)

2) The lambs were slaughtered already, and it just doesn't matter anyway. Yeshua is not a literal lamb with wool. It's the symbolism that has the drash.

3) The lambs will be slaughtered the next morning, meaning the same day as the Cross, and as above it doesn't matter because the symbolism/spiritual (true) carries the drash.

There's probably more answers too.

I skipped the alternative calendar bit, because I don't think there was one at the time.

What about verb tenses.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2013

Lulav said:
Everlasting life comes from 'eating and drinking' of the word of G-d, not eating human flesh, or a lamb, or unleavened bread or wine. it is the word that brings everlasting life, and this is the bread that came down from heaven.

How very Augustinian of you! Are you on the way to adopting Reformation Protestant sacramental doctrine? Addressing the "Capernaitic error"? Interesting...

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2013

mpossoff said:
What about verb tenses.

For example?

Messianic Jewboy · Oct 16, 2013

ContraMundum said:
For example?

In Luke 22 the text says...

1- The day of Unleavened Bread came

2- then Jesus said go make preparations for us to eat the Passover

How can you eat the Passover on the day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover had already passed?

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2013

mpossoff said:
In Luke 22 the text says...

1- The day of Unleavened Bread came

2- then Jesus said go make preparations for us to eat the Passover

How can you eat the Passover on the day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover had already passed?

Great point. I don't hold to all the possible answers, by the way, just trying to outline some of the ones that have been passed around.

What thinketh ye?

Messianic Jewboy · Oct 16, 2013

ContraMundum said:
Great point. I don't hold to all the possible answers, by the way, just trying to outline some of the ones that have been passed around.

What thinketh ye?

What do I think? I don't want to make accusations of an intentional mis-transition in Luke 22. But the text can't be true.

Is it impossible to eat the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread? The context of the text is EATING the Passover as in the sacrifice.

First comes THE Passover(eating the sacrifice) then comes Unleavened Bread.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2013

mpossoff said:
What do I think? I don't want to make accusations of an intentional mis-transition in Luke 22. But the text can't be true. What's interesting if the text can't be true is not a Friday crucifixion possibly.

OK....I know this will be discarded by many with prejudices (because of the author) but this article makes interesting reading...

I actually think that people get even more confused when they get to John's timeline compared to the synoptics, but I think John may actually be harmonized with the synoptics when one understands that there are two days of preparation in the story- one for Pesach and one for shabbos.

Years ago I reconciled all of this to my satisfaction....but do you think I can remember now?

Messianic Jewboy · Oct 16, 2013

ContraMundum said:
OK....I know this will be discarded by many with prejudices (because of the author) but this article makes interesting reading...

I actually think that people get even more confused when they get to John's timeline compared to the synoptics, but I think John may actually be harmonized with the synoptics when one understands that there are two days of preparation in the story- one for Pesach and one for shabbos.

Years ago I reconciled all of this to my satisfaction....but do you think I can remember now?

Well maybe not. What needs to be addressed is eating the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread. Then shabbos can be addressed.

In other words can you assume about shabbos and work backwards or does the eating of the Passover on the 1st of Unleavened bread need to addressed then work your way forward?

Lulav · Oct 16, 2013

mpossoff said:
Well maybe not. What needs to be addressed is eating the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread. Then shabbos can be addressed.

In other words can you assume about shabbos and work backwards or does the eating of the Passover on the 1st of Unleavened bread need to addressed then work your way forward?

If the Passover is slaughtered between the evening, doesn't that mean that it is slaughtered during the day of the 14th, then drained and roasted and by then it is now the 15th at sundown and you eat it with the unleavened bread and herbs before midnight.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2013

mpossoff said:
Well maybe not. What needs to be addressed is eating the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread. Then shabbos can be addressed.

In other words can you assume about shabbos and work backwards or does the eating of the Passover on the 1st of Unleavened bread need to addressed then work your way forward?

I have no idea what you mean exactly, as I think we are both assuming the other guys knows what we're saying. My fault. I'm avoiding detail because of time contraints. The only thing I know is that the Gospels all agree on the days of the crucifixion and resurrection, so whether the Last Supper was a seder or not is the only difference, and there seems to be ways of reconciliation around but none seem overly conclusive. 1stC Judaism is such a puzzle sometimes.

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