Swingers - Swapping Partners

sunlover1 · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
Swingers do not use other people for thier "fun and jollies". They are enjoying sex together with their spouse and for the sexual fulfillment of the other participants together and unselfishly. Swinging is not about self gratification but mutual enjoyment of all participants. It is that lack of selfishness and the pursuit of someone else's sexual enjoyment that makes swinging, in the purest sense, almost Agape-like in nature. Sure there are those that are there only for there own pleasure. But there are those that come to Church for there own pleasure and recognition too. The motive behind any act is what God is most concerned with, not the act itself.

Amen. Motive.
You swing to glorify God? Am I misunderstanding
your post!?
Interesting motive. I've had invitations from two
different couples when I was married to my first
husband. Never considered that I might have
missed the chance to glorify God.
Maybe some of the couples at my church would
be interested in some swinging some night rather
than a prayer meeting. Or do you think that
they might instead throw me out on my ear? lol.

And here I always thought it was for sexual pleasure.

god's_pawn · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
Holo, you are pretty much on target and Nadine is mired in OT theology. When Jesus spoke about divorce, He was speaking to the Jews under the OT who were abusing the commandments and women in general. What he said to His believers from the NT was that there were only 2 Commandments - Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. The neighbor part takes up pretty much everything we do in life, from work to our marriages. Our goal is to make our marriages work. But sometimes they do not. In fact, they do not in just as big a percentage as non-Christian's marriages unfortunately. Falling short of the goal is the definition of the word "sin". We fall short of almost all the goals that God has givien us everyday, but as you brought up, God's grace is there to take care of that.

Loving your neighbor means being forgiving not condemning. When someone in the church goes through a divorce, the rest of the church body should be standing along side BOTH spouses to try to mend the marriage, but that failing, to stand with both in recovery. A Christian should never be jumping from marriage to marriage as that would be an obvious violation of the Love your Neighbor commandment. But after going through some church/pastoral counseling, asking for and/or giving forgiveness from the spouse and God, and some time period after the divorce, remarriage would be appropriate. Getting a divorce is no greater sin than any other failing and as such is forgivable by God, at least according to Him.

So, once forgiven of any sin, it is like you never committed the sin, in God's eyes. Therefore, a person would again be free to remarry. However, as I mentioned already, jumping from marriage to marriage repeatedly would be an obvious problem, probably arising out of unrepentant selfishness or pride.

There are churches in many denominations that belive as Nadine does, that anyone getting a divorce can never remarry and they will throw someone out of the church for remarrying. Some act of love that is. I know - I came from just such a church. But I did not even realize it was happening like that until I went through a divorce. I had moved out and wanted to go through counseling but she claimed I abandoned her and filed for divorce. The entire church sided with her (probably because she volunteered at the church and was very close to all of the women in the office) without ever hearing anything from me, including the pastoral staff, and I was tossed. She got her divorce and I had no church.

So I moved back across country to be closer to other family, got involved in another church, spent a couple of years celibate (not even dating), getting solid pastoral counseling, and studying with God like never before. Then God literally brought me and my current wife (a divorcee that got saved) together without us even looking for the other. We were engaged in 10 weeks and married 10 weeks after that. We have been together now for 17+ years and God has been with us through it all, blessed us beyond measure and blessed all that we have laid our hands to. We have witnessed the same thing happen to numerous couples in our years together so we know that God is quite a bit more accepting than Nadine has indicated.

To paraphrase Paul, the law was made to show man the way to God was not through the law. Romans 8:3-4 Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness. Romans 10:4

this is quite the post; however i'm afraid i was a bit of a waist. the ropic of this feed is swinging not remarriage. personally, i believe remarriage is fine, on swinging though, i take the opposite view. the argument you used work fine for remarriage but not for swinging

wkonwtrtom said:
I have read virtually everything written against swinging, premarital sex, and the "church's" position along with the history of those positions. The influence on church doctrine and scriptural interpretaion from pagans and gnostics is rediculous in it's scope particularly on the sex issues. The church has used the sex issues to bind and restrict the believers just as the Pharisees did to the Jews throughout history and were condemned for it by Jesus.

As I pointed out, the "health issues" are erroneous, made up and/or blown out of proportion to reality.

some churches may have used sex issues as you described, but don't accuse the entire church (i.e. all of Christendom) of that fault. the health issue are quite obviously true. with so many STDs out there, how can you possibly throw that out the window? if these acts are unhealthy, then they are wrong for a Christian (or anyone for that matter) to do.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

In a roundabout way, yes. Anytime you show an Agape-like love to someone, you are glorifying God. There are those that think that they can "worship" during swinging but that would be like worshiping God while playing golf - kind of a distraction either way.

Most churches would throw you out on your ear. But there are several hundred pastors around the country that would not.

I have had dinners that were so delicious it was almost (not to be crude) "orgasmic". Was it wrong or sinful for me to experience pleasure in the meal that much? Why so then is it considered sinful by so many to enjoy sex? Many people still believe that even having sex with your own spouse for anything other than procreation is a sin!

sunlover1 said:
Amen. Motive.
You swing to glorify God? Am I misunderstanding
your post!?
Interesting motive. I've had invitations from two
different couples when I was married to my first
husband. Never considered that I might have
missed the chance to glorify God.
Maybe some of the couples at my church would
be interested in some swinging some night rather
than a prayer meeting. Or do you think that
they might instead throw me out on my ear? lol.

And here I always thought it was for sexual pleasure.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

Unhealthy now is a sin? So how do you determine unhealthy? That which would cause injury? Sickness? Death?

Wouldn't it be unhealthy to then participate in almost any physical sport where injury, even permanent injury or death may occur? Like bunjie Jumping, parachuting, car racing, etc? What about just riding a motorcycle on the street?

The facts are that untreatable STDs are rare - rarer than being struck by lightning for instance. But you will still walk in the rain with a metal shaft umbrella. The treatable ones are also the ones that are easiest to prevent. Almost like wearing a back up parachute in case the first on fails.

There is a tremendous amount of hysteria over STDs that is unwarranted. Besides, I have already dealt with the STDs in the swinging community (almost non-existant due to testing, prevention measures, and the fact that swinging is not as indescriminate as most non-swingers believe.)

god's_pawn said:
some churches may have used sex issues as you described, but don't accuse the entire church (i.e. all of Christendom) of that fault. the health issue are quite obviously true. with so many STDs out there, how can you possibly throw that out the window? if these acts are unhealthy, then they are wrong for a Christian (or anyone for that matter) to do.

Nadiine · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
Adultery (biblically) is not simply the act of sex with another person when married. It is the stealing of another man's wife to be your own. It is a property issue not a sex issue. Jesus made men and women equal (Gal 3:28) and husbands and wives owners of each other's bodies (1Cor7:4). So, if a husband and wife agree to share the other's body with a person or persons unmarried to them, then it is not adultery by biblcal definition. By man's definition it would be, but by man's definition it was illegal for Daniel to worship God and we know how that turned out.

ARE WE IN THE OT?
It's rather hilarious to me how people use the OT to try to suit
their supports for sin - then the minute the OT is used to show
what sin is,"Oh the OT is obsolete today & we aren't under law".

It's only used by people to support sin, any laws it clearly teaches
are disregarded becuz it's all of a sudden outdated, legalistic &
"to the Jews only".
How convenient for us all eh?

Go read Matt. 19 again (unless you haven't read it at all).
Just divorcing unlawfully and remarrying another IS adultery
as Jesus defined it.
Not "stealing another spouse" of someone else.

Fornication is sexual sin too. This whole bit about being able
partner swap as Christians is an abomination; anyone trying
to support such sexual immorality is falsely teaching.
(I can't say the rest of what I'd also claim here at CF).

IT'S SIN AND IT'S ADULTERY. Period.

Nadiine · Jan 9, 2009

Maybe some have forgotten this verse exists?:

Matthew 5:32 Jesus said, "whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

see:
http://www.padfield.com/1995/adultery.html

.

NaLuvena · Jan 9, 2009

holo said:
So if I just "shack up" as people like to call it, for years, have children and all, but never get married, I won't sin if I choose to marry somebody else later? But if I did get married hastily at 18, with someone I never should've married, I must either stay with her or never be with anybody else again, ever? That's God's good will for us?

My friend, I have to disagree with you on this one.....

If you shack up with someone for years, people might not say anything if you leave her and marry someone else, but one you are joined to someone else, you become one flesh, essentially married in God's eyes.

People tend to give the ceremony more importance than God does. There was no wedding ceremony for Adam and Eve.

sunlover1 · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
In a roundabout way, yes. Anytime you show an Agape-like love to someone, you are glorifying God.

But swinging isnt evidence of an 'agape like" love. Swinging is having
sex with people that arent on your short list of valid sex partners. Ahem.
So that would be an 'eros' like type of 'love' wouldnt it?
So completely different, no?

There are those that think that they can "worship" during swinging but that would be like worshiping God while playing golf - kind of a distraction either way.

To me, it would be more akin to worshipping while doing a hit of blotter acid. Just sort of ... goofy as heck.

Most churches would throw you out on your ear. But there are several hundred pastors around the country that would not.

Yeah, guess mine would be the former type.

I have had dinners that were so delicious it was almost (not to be crude) "orgasmic".

I'm hearing that. Or sometimes referred to as foodgasms.

Was it wrong or sinful for me to experience pleasure in the meal that much?

God is the one who gave us the tastebuds, but there again there is
the temptation to over indulge, which is again, missing the mark of perfection.
And we all know what happens when we over indulge. Is that God's best for us?
Diabetics abound, liposuction, stomach stapling, and so forth.
So again, missing that mark.

Why so then is it considered sinful by so many to enjoy sex?

Because they're prudish and have icky minds.
Sex should be enjoyed or something aint right.
But obviously its for the marriage bed, hello?
I seriously dont understand where you're coming from if
you think sex should be enjoyed by everyone everywhere,
at any time and under any circumstances.

Many people still believe that even having sex with your own spouse for anything other than procreation is a sin!

And then some take it to crazy opposite extremes, handing out like candy.
If all the raindrops were lemon drops and gum drops, oh what a rain it would be...

Im SO confused.

sunlover1 · Jan 9, 2009

Nadiine said:
Maybe some have forgotten this verse exists?:

Matthew 5:32 Jesus said, "whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

.

Evidently there's no such thing as adultry.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

No we are not in the OT - but Jesus was. So when he spoke of things to the Pharisees, he spoke in the context of the OT law, not the NT. And if you want to live under ANY OT law, you must go back to living under ALL OT law. Gal 5:4, Rom 3:19, & Gal 5:18

The OT only points us to the futility of trying to use the OT law to justify ourselves. It is not a rule book for the NT believer. All of the OT law is summed up by Jesus in the only 2 commandments He gave us. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Matt 19 is Jesus telling the Pharisees that they have circumvented the OT law by allowing a man to discard one piece of property (wife) and take another. This is the same thing that an adulterer does by taking the property (wife) of another man. He is discarding one wife for another. Even when a man only cast away his wife in his own mind by lusting in such a way that he disregarded the wife he already had and wanted another woman more than her.

Jesus never said anything against polygamy so it was not the fact that a man would take a new wife but the fact that he was disposing or discarding one he alreayd had. Again Motive.

I know that you would bring up fornication too. Everyone does eventually. But fornication is not a sexual sin as such but a sin of worshiping another god with sex. Fornication was all about temple sexual worship with priestesses (prostitutes) . The word translated fornication is from the Greek "porneia" which in context and properly translated is about sex during idol worship, not premarital sex in scripture - ever. But that subject is for a whole different thread.

Swinging may be a sin - to those whose consciences convict them. However, to those who are not under that conviction, it is not sin. Just as Romans 14:22-23 says, Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

If you believe something is a sin, it is for you, even if not specifically deliniated in scripture. But because you believe it is does not make it a sin for someone else. That said, knowing that youbelieve it is a sin, I would never ask you to participate as that would be a violation of the second NT commandment to love my neighbor since it would bring offense to you.

sunlover1 · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
I know that you would bring up fornication too. Everyone does eventually. But fornication is not a sexual sin as such but a sin of worshiping another god with sex. Fornication was all about temple sexual worship with priestesses (prostitutes) . The word translated fornication is from the Greek "porneia" which in context and properly translated is about sex during idol worship, not premarital sex in scripture - ever. But that subject is for a whole different thread.

What do you mean by "premarital" sex?
Does one need marriage to have sex now?
Really, what is the purpose of marriage?

Swinging may be a sin - to those whose consciences convict them. However, to those who are not under that conviction, it is not sin. Just as Romans 14:22-23 says, Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

So if I am a liar but am not convicted in my heart, iyo, then I am
really not sinning when I lie?
OR could it be that my conscience is seared?

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

Nadiine said:
ARE WE IN THE OT?
It's rather hilarious to me how people use the OT to try to suit
their supports for sin - then the minute the OT is used to show
what sin is,"Oh the OT is obsolete today & we aren't under law".

It's only used by people to support sin, any laws it clearly teaches
are disregarded becuz it's all of a sudden outdated, legalistic &
"to the Jews only".
How convenient for us all eh?

Go read Matt. 19 again (unless you haven't read it at all).
Just divorcing unlawfully and remarrying another IS adultery
as Jesus defined it.
Not "stealing another spouse" of someone else.

Fornication is sexual sin too. This whole bit about being able
partner swap as Christians is an abomination; anyone trying
to support such sexual immorality is falsely teaching.
(I can't say the rest of what I'd also claim here at CF).

IT'S SIN AND IT'S ADULTERY. Period.

sunlover1 said:
What do you mean by "premarital" sex?
Does one need marriage to have sex now?
Really, what is the purpose of marriage?

So if I am a liar but am not convicted in my heart, iyo, then I am
really not sinning when I lie?
OR could it be that my conscience is seared?

_________
Premarital; before marriage. The act of premarital sex is never even discussed in scripture except when a man is deceived about the virginity of his bride. And even then it was a property issue - not getting your money's worth when paying off the bride's father.

Marriage is the joining of a man & a woman in spirit and life purpose, for the procreation of children, and for making love. But it is not a limiting factor in sex itself - so long as the spouses agree about having sex with others then it is not adultery.

Being a liar is unloving of your neighbor - therefore sin. The Conscience being seared is a completely different topic.

I used to belive the same way most of you do but after years of breaking verses about sex issues down to the basic Ancient Greek (not the Modern Greek like most concordnaces and lexicons do) and Hebrew root words, studying where the sexual dogmas came from, and a lot of prayer, I have come to understand some things differently than the generally accepted teachings. I just refuse to believe that God would tell us that we are free from the bonds of the OT Law on everything except sex and then tell us that we have to be even more restricted than the OT law was about sex. It does not make any logical sense.

NaLuvena · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
I have had dinners that were so delicious it was almost (not to be crude) "orgasmic". Was it wrong or sinful for me to experience pleasure in the meal that much? Why so then is it considered sinful by so many to enjoy sex? Many people still believe that even having sex with your own spouse for anything other than procreation is a sin!

I don't think you can put enjoying food in the same category as enjoying sex. Scripture is clear that all other sins are outside the body, but sexual sin is against our own bodies.

1 Corinthians 6:8

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

NaLuvena said:
I don't think you can put enjoying food in the same category as enjoying sex. Scripture is clear that all other sins are outside the body, but sexual sin is against our own bodies.

1 Corinthians 6:8

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

Again, the words translated here as "Sexual Immorality" and "sexual sins" are from the Greek "porneia" which is sex used in idol worship. The context confirms that. It is not talking about sex in any other form.

And it was verse 18, not 8

NaLuvena · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
Again, the words translated here as "Sexual Immorality" and "sexual sins" are from the Greek "porneia" which is sex used in idol worship. The context confirms that. It is not talking about sex in any other form.

Well, as I'm not greek, I have to check my Greek Lexicon. That's one definition of the word. Here is what I found.

Porneia:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
[*]illicit sexual intercourse
1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
[*] metaph. the worship of idols
1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
[/FONT]

So your argument that the verse is referring to idol worship is wrong IMO, it refers to all sexual immorality. This would even include swinging.

wkonwtrtom said:
And it was verse 18, not 8

My bad...typo.... you're correct.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

NaLuvena said:
Well, as I'm not greek, I have to check my Greek Lexicon. That's one definition of the word. Here is what I found.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
[*]illicit sexual intercourse

adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,

[*] metaph. the worship of idols

of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

[/FONT]

So your argument that the verse is referring to idol worship is wrong IMO, it refers to all sexual immorality. This would even include swinging.

My bad...typo.... you're correct.

Make sure you look for an ancient Greek one - Modern Greek has added a lot of words and definitions over the last 2000 years. The context of the passage though is definative - it is taking about idol worship - the Harlot referred to in 15 and 16 is other gods (little g)

NaLuvena · Jan 9, 2009

wkonwtrtom said:
Make sure you look for an ancient Greek one - Modern Greek has added a lot of words and definitions over the last 2000 years. The context of the passage though is definative - it is taking about idol worship - the Harlot referred to in 15 and 16 is other gods (little g)

Strong's ancient enough for you?

The verses do not talk about idol worship, it talks about sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 6

15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Note that the only quote in the verses is not referring to idol worship but the first joining in the Garden of Eden, between Adam and Eve. Paul refers to sexual sins being committed against our own bodies. Idol worship does not do that, only sexual acts do that. Granted that the sexual acts could be done with a temple prostitute, but the sex, whether it is part of idol worship, or just drunken carousing, is what is being addressed here.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

Harlot, Prostitute, sexual immorality, sexual sins are all the same word in the greek - porneia. And the members of Christ are the people in the Body, not the "members" of individuals. The text here is completely about temple prostitution, which was the form of idol worship in Corinth. Even the Christians there were going to the pagan temples to get blessing on their crops, fishing, etc and participating in idol worship through temple prostitutes and giving offerings to get those blessings. Paul wanted the pagan practices purged from the church there.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

Strongs is not Ancient Greek. It is not even Koine Greek (common). It is modern Greek.

wkonwtrtom · Jan 9, 2009

Actually it is modern english translations of modern Greek.

Swingers - Swapping Partners

Beloved, Let us love one another

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Beloved, Let us love one another

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