Swearing oaths

[ReformedChapin]

In this case (and the case of Rahab) I don't view that as a sin. But theoretically, would the sin be on me if I told the SS the truth? Or would the sin be on the SS for killing the jew?

Both I would say, is lying ever not sinful?

 

[Cris413]

In this case (and the case of Rahab) I don't view that as a sin. But theoretically, would the sin be on me if I told the SS the truth? Or would the sin be on the SS for killing the jew?

I agree...and that was the example set in the account of Rahab and the spies...murder of the spies would have been a greater offense to God.

...meaning we really need to show some common sense and have a heart of what is truly right and truly wrong...and not be so beholding to the letter of the Law...rather than the spirit.

Lying is a sin...but in this case...justified to save the lives of the spies.

 

[Edial]

Maybe I am getting confused what oath means and what vows mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Cris413]

Maybe I am getting confused what oath means and what vows mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath

Thanks,
Ed

So a vow is not to be confused with an oath, however, a vow is a special kind of oath...and to say one "affirms" something is somehow preferable to one "swearing" something...yet it means exactly the same thing.

Good link...it is rather confusing...isn't it? Again...this validates...to me anyway...why it's a bit more important to understand the concept and context rather than scrutinizing the technicalities and the letter of the law.

 

[A New Dawn]

I just never interpreted those verses to say "don't swear an oath"...I've always thought they meant don't swear an oath you don't intend to keep.

I always interpreted it to mean that we are not in control of anything, so we have no business swearing an oath. If something happens, it is because God has made it happen, not us.

 

[Edial]

I agree...and that was the example set in the account of Rahab and the spies...murder of the spies would have been a greater offense to God.

...meaning we really need to show some common sense and have a heart of what is truly right and truly wrong...and not be so beholding to the letter of the Law...rather than the spirit.

Lying is a sin...but in this case...justified to save the lives of the spies.

This is my opinion ...

I know lying is sin, since the devil is a father of lies.
That is a fact.

I know I do not tell the truth all the time. YET, I know I am much better than I was before.
I no longer lie to progress in life (with our Lord's help), but I do lie sometimes when I am startled and pressed to the wall.

Rahab, had no problem telling the pursuers she did not have the spies.
As a prostitute, lying was least of her problems.

And the NT (James and Hebrews) praised her faith that she believed that the God of these spies is the LORD and sent the spies away from the pursuers.
The praise was not for the lying part.

Willful lying that is made to primarily to promote oneself in life (starting from work resumes and ending with bloody scheming), or to boast will get one nowhere.

Lying as a surprise when one is pressed against a wall is a result of our sinful nature.
A reminder to us who we really are.
I think we are given tests according to our degree of our true nature.

Are there noble lies? How can a lie be noble.

Christ never lied.
He also knew how not to divulge unnecessary information until it's due time. Christ was wise.
Some of our politicians weave. That is not wisdom, but a skill.

Yet I know one thing.

We will not see any lies in Heaven.

I praise God for this.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Cris413]

This is my opinion ...

I know lying is sin, since the devil is a father of lies.
That is a fact.

I know I do not tell the truth all the time. YET, I know I am much better than I was before.
I no longer lie to progress in life (with our Lord's help), but I do lie sometimes when I am startled and pressed to the wall.

Rahab, had no problem telling the pursuers she did not have the spies.
As a prostitute, lying was least of her problems.

And the NT (James and Hebrews) praised her faith that she believed that the God of these spies is the LORD and sent the spies away from the pursuers.
The praise was not for the lying part.

Willful lying that is made to primarily to promote oneself in life (starting from work resumes and ending with bloody scheming), or to boast will get one nowhere.

Lying as a surprise when one is pressed against a wall is a result of our sinful nature.
A reminder to us who we really are.
I think we are given tests according to our degree of our true nature.

Are there noble lies? How can a lie be noble.

Christ never lied.
He also knew how not to divulge unnecessary information until it's due time. Christ was wise.
Some of our politicians weave. That is not wisdom, but a skill.

Yet I know one thing.

We will not see any lies in Heaven.

I praise God for this.

Thanks,
Ed

One thing I've learned in the short time this thread has been active...is that I certainly have more questions than I have answers...but that is often the situation for me...

And the account of Rahab and the spies certainly warrants much more study for me...

...as well as the question of oaths

What about the oath Rahab requested of the men sent to spy...

Jos 2:12 Now therefore, I beg you, swear to me by the LORD, since I have shown you kindness, that you also will show kindness to my father's house, and give me a true token,
Jos 2:13 and spare my father, my mother, my brothers, my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death."
Jos 2:14 So the men answered her, "Our lives for yours, if none of you tell this business of ours. And it shall be, when the LORD has given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with you."
Jos 2:15 Then she let them down by a rope through the window, for her house was on the city wall; she dwelt on the wall.
Jos 2:16 And she said to them, "Get to the mountain, lest the pursuers meet you. Hide there three days, until the pursuers have returned. Afterward you may go your way."
Jos 2:17 So the men said to her: "We will be blameless of this oath of yours which you have made us swear,
Jos 2:18 unless, when we come into the land, you bind this line of scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you bring your father, your mother, your brothers, and all your father's household to your own home.
Jos 2:19 So it shall be that whoever goes outside the doors of your house into the street, his blood shall be on his own head, and we will be guiltless. And whoever is with you in the house, his blood shall be on our head if a hand is laid on him.
Jos 2:20 And if you tell this business of ours, then we will be free from your oath which you made us swear."
Jos 2:21 Then she said, "According to your words, so be it." And she sent them away, and they departed. And she bound the scarlet cord in the window.

 

[Cris413]

Then I'd say someone's misinterpreted a verse along the way

I certainly agree with this...if Scripture seems conflictual...it's our understanding that is lacking...assuredly.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I certainly agree with this...if Scripture seems conflictual...it's our understanding that is lacking...assuredly.

there is no conflict with asserting we must sin sometimes to accomplish the greater good

 

[Nadiine]

Gill's commentary is very helpful. In a nutshell, he explains the context of how Jews swore by what Jesus said not to swear by, and how they abused it as a way to either keep their word or not depending on what they swore by.

Gill on Matt. 5:34
Gill on Matt. 5:35
Gill on Matt. 5:36
Gill on Matt. 5:37

Jesus said to cut the crap, let your "yes" be "yes," and your "no" be "no." It is not an admonishment to keep people from taking the stand in court, or to prevent people from getting married.

In Jesus' harsh rebuke to the pharisees, he said this:

Mat. 23
16"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing;
but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.'
17"You fools and blind men! Which is more important,
the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?

 

[MrJim]

there is no conflict with asserting we must sin sometimes to accomplish the greater good

The end justifies the means? Trot out the scripture for it

 

[Cris413]

Gill's commentary is very helpful. In a nutshell, he explains the context of how Jews swore by what Jesus said not to swear by, and how they abused it as a way to either keep their word or not depending on what they swore by.

Gill on Matt. 5:34
Gill on Matt. 5:35
Gill on Matt. 5:36
Gill on Matt. 5:37

Jesus said to cut the crap, let your "yes" be "yes," and your "no" be "no." It is not an admonishment to keep people from taking the stand in court, or to prevent people from getting married.

Great information...thank you and this really puts things in perspective quite effectively!

 

[WalksWithChrist]

The subject of swearing oaths was brought up in the Bring Back the Draft Thread...so I thought I would start a new thread for further discussion if anyone is interested...

I'm interested in the thoughts of others regarding:

Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


My thoughts as posted in the other thread are:


I’m not certain this instruction is regarding oaths of loyalty/promises and such but more so regarding swearing an oath to prove what you’re saying is true…be it a false statement against someone or in defense of yourself if someone is accusing you falsely.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Did you commit such and such a crime? Yes or no should be sufficient…not “I swear to God I didn’t do it.” Or “I swear to God I’m telling the truth about such and such”

I don’t mean to derail the thread but I think this is an important distinction to understand.

I had this dilemma not too long ago because I was subpoenaed by the DA to testify against my neighbor….I was a little concerned about this so I did a bit of prayerful research.

What I came to understand was to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God…by answering yes…my yes was yes and I was submitting to the governing authority which required me to take this oath in a court of law. And testifying against my neighbor…well…Scripture tells us not to bear false witness.

I was not taking it upon myself to get people to believe me by swearing an oath because that somehow validated what I was saying.

I don’t think that taking an oath of office, or to serve and protect our community or our country violates the intent of what Jesus is teaching here in context.

Here in NC you can waive the swearing in. Some people really object to swearing on a Bible and others, let's say Muslims for example, object for obvious reasons.

I tend to not use oaths. I don't even like to use the word "promise" at all! I say something and I do it or I don't. I take this issue pretty literally in my life.

 

[ReformedChapin]

The end justifies the means? Trot out the scripture for it

I'm not sure if I would argue it in that way. But the example that Cris posted about Rahab I would say speaks volumes about how once sometimes one must do something less wrong to get something more right come out of it.

 

[Sketcher]

Alright.

It's Nazi germany. You are hiding a Jew in your house and SS comes to your police asks if you are hiding anyone. Do you lie and sin or do you tell them there is a jew in your house and get the jew killed?

Tell me what you think.

Well, you could do like the Hebrew midwives did and lie in Exodus 1:15-21, or you could do like Corrie Ten Boom's co-underground worker did in The Hiding Place where she said "they're right under the table," and the guards just left. I don't think there's a wrong option.

 

[Edial]

Here in NC you can waive the swearing in. Some people really object to swearing on a Bible and others, let's say Muslims for example, object for obvious reasons.

I tend to not use oaths. I don't even like to use the word "promise" at all! I saw something and I do it or I don't. I take this issue pretty literally in my life.

I tend to agree with you.

I do not "volunteer" making oaths. I also feel uncomfortable promising things.
I noticed that the stronger I promise, the more is the probability I will not keep it. It somehow turns out that way.

Just try doing it without promising.

I also am having problem saying "I will", like in I will do this or I will go there.
I noticed when I say "I will", somehow I don't.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I tend to agree with you.

I do not "volunteer" making oaths. I also feel uncomfortable promising things.
I noticed that the stronger I promise, the more is the probability I will not keep it. It somehow turns out that way.

Just try doing it without promising.

I also am having problem saying "I will", like in I will do this or I will go there.
I noticed when I say "I will", somehow I don't.

Thanks,
Ed

Good observation! The idea that a "promise can be broken" seems to give you license to not do something promised...especially if the promise is fervent.

But somehow just giving your word makes it easier to follow thru. (for some people anyway! lol)