LDS surprising results of text testing of BOM

[Daniel Marsh]

So what happened to the parts that Emma Smith wrote down? She was also scribe to Joseph Smith. The results only show Solomon Spalding, Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdry. Tells me the results were skewed.

I have no doubt that results, testimonies from all sides are bias.

 

[Ironhold]

Attacking the character of a messenger is a logical fallacy.

...Only in the world of thought experiments...

In real life, if a source has a bad enough reputation then anything with their name attached to it immediately becomes suspect and needs to be supplemented by further corroborating details in order to establish its validity.

An example?

A Brief History of Maureen Dowd Quoting People Inaccurately

So-called "journalist" Maureen Dowd has such an extensive history of misquoting people that her reputation has been permanently affected. This even includes at least one instance where she used ellipses to essentially doctor a statement made by President George W. Bush, as the words she removed changed the entire meaning of what he was saying.

As a result, those people who know about her history of misquoting people do not take citations she provides at face value and instead seek out other sources to determine if she properly cited everything or not.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

...Only in the world of thought experiments...

In real life, if a source has a bad enough reputation then anything with their name attached to it immediately becomes suspect and needs to be supplemented by further corroborating details in order to establish its validity.

An example?

A Brief History of Maureen Dowd Quoting People Inaccurately

So-called "journalist" Maureen Dowd has such an extensive history of misquoting people that her reputation has been permanently affected. This even includes at least one instance where she used ellipses to essentially doctor a statement made by President George W. Bush, as the words she removed changed the entire meaning of what he was saying.

As a result, those people who know about her history of misquoting people do not take citations she provides at face value and instead seek out other sources to determine if she properly cited everything or not.

It is part of real life, not just what you say friend.
The logical Fallacy is known as:

"
ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

Example: After Sally presents an eloquent and compelling case for a more equitable taxation system, Sam asks the audience whether we should believe anything from a woman who isn't married, was once arrested, and smells a bit weird." Your logical fallacy is ad hominem

 

[Ironhold]

It is part of real life, not just what you say friend.
The logical Fallacy is known as:

"
ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

Example: After Sally presents an eloquent and compelling case for a more equitable taxation system, Sam asks the audience whether we should believe anything from a woman who isn't married, was once arrested, and smells a bit weird." Your logical fallacy is ad hominem

In this case, though, Hurlbut's reputation was so bad that his own editor knew that having Hurlbut's name on the work would lead to it being dismissed out of hand.

That alone is grounds to independently verify Hurlbut's claims rather than attempting to take them at face value.

edit -

Also, bear in mind that it was reportedly none other than Walter Martin who claimed that a "cult" member was as fair a game as the "cult" they belonged to, so this door was opened a long, long time ago.

 

[Hrairoo]

If what you say about character is true, why do Mormons still present the three and eight witnesses as credible? Especially considering how Martin Harris claimed to constantly see Christ and the Devil in animal forms that talked to him, and he joined and bore testimony of several other churches before and after Mormonism. David Whitmer even called Joseph a false prophet and set himself up as the prophet of his own church. Their signature on anything should have been independently verified by someone not related to Joseph and not involved in the translation.

 

[He is the way]

If what you say about character is true, why do Mormons still present the three and eight witnesses as credible? Especially considering how Martin Harris claimed to constantly see Christ and the Devil in animal forms that talked to him, and he joined and bore testimony of several other churches before and after Mormonism. David Whitmer even called Joseph a false prophet and set himself up as the prophet of his own church. Their signature on anything should have been independently verified by someone not related to Joseph and not involved in the translation.

David Whitmer was one of the most avid witnesses to the golden plates:

"Some of the 71 recorded interviews he gave between 1838 and 1888 contained different details than others.[30] Recounting the vision to Orson Pratt in 1878, Whitmer claimed to have seen not only the golden plates but the "Brass Plates, the plates containing the record of the wickedness of the people of the world ... the sword of Laban, the Directors (i.e. the ball which Lehi had) and the Interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed".[31]

In 1880, John Murphy interviewed Whitmer and later published an account suggesting that perhaps Whitmer's experience was a "delusion or perhaps a cunning scheme." Murphy's account said that Whitmer had not been able to describe the appearance of an angel and had likened Whitmer's experience to the "impressions as the quaker [receives] when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience."[32] Whitmer responded by publishing "A Proclamation", reaffirming his testimony and saying,

"It having been represented by one John Murphy, of Polo, Caldwell County, Mo., that I, in a conversation with him last summer, denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the BOOK OF MORMON. To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now, if he did not then; and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once for all to make this public statement: That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that Book, as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements, as then made and published. He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear; it was no delusion!"[33]"

From: David Whitmer - Wikipedia

To the "Proclamation" Whitmer attached an affidavit attesting to his honesty and standing in the community.[34] Whitmer ordered that his testimony to the Book of Mormon be placed on his tombstone.[35]

In response to a question by Anthony Metcalf, Whitmer attempted to clarify the "spiritual" versus "natural" viewing of the plates:

In regards to my testimony to the visitation of the angel, who declared to us Three Witnesses that the Book of Mormon is true, I have this to say: Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris, you say, called it 'being in vision.' We read in the Scriptures, Cornelius saw, in a vision, an angel of God. Daniel saw an angel in a vision, also in other places it states they saw an angel in the spirit. A bright light enveloped us where we were, that filled at noon day, and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon. I am now passed eighty-two years old, and I have a brother, J. J. Snyder, to do my writing for me, at my dictation. [Signed] David Whitmer.[36]

 

[Daniel Marsh]

2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. 13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. 17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Ironhold]

Pro tip:

When communicating online, you'll want to break up long stretches of text. Not only are they difficult to read even under the best of circumstances, many monitors may not even display them properly.

2 Peter 2

 

[Daniel Marsh]

bumpo for those who missed this thread