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Supremacy challenge part 2

TaylorSexton

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No no, please don't misunderstand me. I do appreciate that the writers of the text that were later codified into the bible did not get things the way we would.

They got things wrong.

Okay. Well, like I said, merely asserting something doesn't make it true. Examples and researched argumentation are necessary for a fair conversation. It is exceedingly difficult to have profitable conversation with bare and vague assertions.
 
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Larniavc

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Okay. Well, like I said, merely asserting something doesn't make it true. Examples and researched argumentation are necessary for a fair conversation. It is exceedingly difficult to have profitable conversation with bare and vague assertions.
I gave you an example of the Bible getting it wrong.

The flood. That did not happen.
 
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Speedwell

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I gave you an example of the Bible getting it wrong.

The flood. That did not happen.
Moreover, it did not need to have happened. It's about some theological ax the Fundamentalists are grinding which has nothing to do with essential Christian doctrine.
 
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TaylorSexton

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I gave you an example of the Bible getting it wrong.

The flood. That did not happen.

To which I replied that that is your own personal belief based upon the evidence presented to you. I, too, have my own belief based upon the evidence presented to me in Scripture. If you can provide me with well-researched literature explaining why the flood could never have happened, explaining and defining the reasons well (e.g., I have no idea what DNA bottlenecking is), then I'm all in! I would love to learn more. After all, all truth is a Gods truth—a maxim by which I stand firmly. Who knows? Perhaps we can help one another, which is an exciting prospect me.

Moreover, it did not need to have happened. It's about some theological ax the Fundamentalists are grinding which has nothing to do with essential Christian doctrine.

I must respectfully disagree. I am far from a Fundamentalist, but I see Scripture's God-breathed nature (1 Tim. 3:16) to demand the truthfulness of historical events, no matter how miraculous.
 
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Larniavc

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Moreover, it did not need to have happened. It's about some theological ax the Fundamentalists are grinding which has nothing to do with essential Christian doctrine.
I reckon a lot more people would be interested in Christianity but for fundamentalists.

Over here in the U.K. Religion is a quiet personal thing that is only discussed in church or private meetings with other like minded people.

At least that's my experience.

My mother in law is Christian and once tentatively asked my wife if our son would be Christened (he's not going to be) and then never (in the 11 years I've known her) mentioned it again.

We get on great.
 
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Larniavc

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e.g., I have no idea what DNA bottlenecking is)
A DNA bottle neck is when a species is nearly driven to extinction and a consequent dramatic reduction of the genetic variation in the remaining population is found (see the Cheetah for an example).

The killing of nearly all of every air breathing animal at the same time (as per the flood) would cause a genetic bottle neck in every species currently in existence.

This is not what we find when we look at the DNA: but it is what we expect to find if the flood was as stated in the Bible.

A quick look in google scholar will bring up some fascinating educational material for you.

If you have no idea what a genetic bottle neck is some time on google scholar will really give you an idea of how much you may be unaware of.

One of the most exciting things about investigating the world around us is learning just how much information is out there for the taking.
 
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Speedwell

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To which I replied that that is your own personal belief based upon the evidence presented to you. I, too, have my own belief based upon the evidence presented to me in Scripture. If you can provide me with well-researched literature explaining why the flood could never have happened, explaining and defining the reasons well (e.g., I have no idea what DNA bottlenecking is), then I'm all in! I would love to learn more. After all, all truth is a Gods truth—a maxim by which I stand firmly. Who knows? Perhaps we can help one another, which is an exciting prospect me.



I must respectfully disagree. I am far from a Fundamentalist, but I see Scripture's God-breathed nature (1 Tim. 3:16) to demand the truthfulness of historical events, no matter how miraculous.
I was referring to the Fundamentalist "genesis flood" the one which covered the entire terrestrial globe to the height of Mt. Everest (or in which Mt. Everest rose to its present height in a few hours right after, take your pick) in which sliding tectonic plates reached sonic velocities and the "Fountains of the Deep" erupted with such force as blast chunks of the Earth into space to form the Asteroid Belt, all in 2304 BC. OK, it was a miracle, but there is no science for it, nor historical evidence outside the Bible. Moreover, there is nothing of theology in the Bible story which would fail to be satisfied by a large regional flood (of which geology provides evidence of several at the end of the last ice age) in which a proto-Noah rescued his own livestock and a reasonable selection of local wild fauna in a barge of his own construction. You need the "genesis flood" to prop up your own view of scripture, but Christian doctrine doesn't need it.
 
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TaylorSexton

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A DNA bottle neck is when a species is nearly driven to extinction and a consequent dramatic reduction of the genetic variation in the remaining population is found (see the Cheetah for an example).

The killing of nearly all of every air breathing animal at the same time (as per the flood) would cause a genetic bottle neck in every species currently in existence.

This is not what we find when we look at the DNA: but it is what we expect to find if the flood was as stated in the Bible.

A quick look in google scholar will bring up some fascinating educational material for you.

If you have no idea what a genetic bottle neck is some time on google scholar will really give you an idea of how much you may be unaware of.

One of the most exciting things about investigating the world around us is learning just how much information is out there for the taking.

Thanks for the reply and the helpful information. Now that I have been familiarized with what a DNA bottleneck is, I am struggling to see how this is damning evidence against the reality of a flood. In the end, it seems to me than the speculation of a DNA bottlenecking is just that: speculation. All the Scripture tells us is that the flood happened. It doesn't give us any detail at all as to what happened afterward with the animals. First, we are not even taking into account things likes God's sovereignty in designing and sustaining life (even to the point of genetic variation). Second, the point of the story is not to address every possible angle—scientific or otherwise—but to tell a story of a God who works miracles with his people.

I know you will reply that this is still impossible and could not have happened. And, if I had your world view, I would certainly agree. The flood account, quite frankly, is a ridiculous thing to accept per human reasoning. However, a tenet of the Christian faith is an omnipotent God who can, has and does work miracles, and clearly from even an atheistic perspective of Scripture the flood account is meant to be seen as a miracle rather than something attained by mere human ingenuity.

The wonderful thing about our God is that one day speculation will no longer exist. We will fully know just as we are fully known.
 
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TaylorSexton

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You need the "genesis flood" to prop up your own view of scripture, but Christian doctrine doesn't need it.

Again, I must respectfully disagree. Paul, most certainly important for Christian doctrine, says that Scripture is "God-breathed." If a part of Scripture were to be a lie, it would no doubt cast suspicion upon God who breathed it, and that would have devastating impacts of Christian doctrine—it would erode the very foundation of the faith. I do not feel I am taking any other view of Scripture other than what Christ and the Apostles had.
 
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Speedwell

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Again, I must respectfully disagree. Paul, most certainly important for Christian doctrine, says that Scripture is "God-breathed."
And there are a number of theories of what that means, of which yours is only one.
If a part of Scripture were to be a lie, it would no doubt cast suspicion upon God who breathed it, and that would have devastating impacts of Christian doctrine—it would erode the very foundation of the faith. I do not feel I am taking any other view of Scripture other than what Christ and the Apostles had.
So the recasting under divine inspiration of an ancient flood story to convey a theological message is a "lie?"
 
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rjs330

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And there are a number of theories of what that means, of which yours is only one.So the recasting under divine inspiration of an ancient flood story to convey a theological message is a "lie?"
Only if it is presented as truth and accepted as truth by others mainly the apostles and Jesus then to say it didn't happen is to say Jesus and Peter lied about it or at least were deceptive.

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rjs330

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Yes, it does mean something, and it does present a true history. However, to not realize that it is a collection of very, VERY ancient writings (in regards to the Hebrew) and ancient writings (in regards to the Greek), and thus not to recognize that these writers did not account for history and science in the same way we do in modernity is to be very unfair to the biblical witness. Therefore, in many places we are constantly trying to arrive at a better understand both of what the text says and what it does not say. To treat Scripture to be something it is not nor has ever claimed itself to be (e.g., a scientific treatise or a 21st Century historical textbook) is to be hermeneutically unsound and unfair. We should, on both sides of this debate, desire fairness in these matters, no?
Who says it's a 20th century text book? Just because it was written by ancient Hebrews doesn't mean its not history. They might have written different than the way we write doesn't mean it's not factual. To make the claim that it's not factual has no basis in fact. There is no evidence other than man made science that Genesis isn't true. The belief that Genesis is not true is based not on Scripture but on science. Science which has only made made theories and man made suppositions of an ancient time.

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Speedwell

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Only if it is presented as truth and accepted as truth by others mainly the apostles and Jesus then to say it didn't happen is to say Jesus and Peter lied about it or at least were deceptive.

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Who said it didn't happen? We're talking about the text of the story, not the event itself. We're talking about a claim about the text which allows one to infallibly conclude from it, for instance, that sliding tectonic plates reached sonic velocities and the "Fountains of the Deep" erupted with such force as to blast chunks of the Earth into space to form the Asteroid Belt, all in exactly 2304 BC, "because it says so in the Bible," or otherwise the Bible is a lie and Jesus died for nothing.

I'm sorry if I insult your beliefs, but that scenario and the claim of literal inerrancy which backs it up is a lot of fatuous nonsense which has nothing to do with faith in Christ
 
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Subduction Zone

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Who says it's a 20th century text book? Just because it was written by ancient Hebrews doesn't mean its not history. They might have written different than the way we write doesn't mean it's not factual. To make the claim that it's not factual has no basis in fact. There is no evidence other than man made science that Genesis isn't true. The belief that Genesis is not true is based not on Scripture but on science. Science which has only made made theories and man made suppositions of an ancient time.

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It appears that you have no idea what science is and does. And since you are highly reliant on the science that you deny that makes your claim just a bit hypocritical.
 
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TaylorSexton

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And there are a number of theories of what that means, of which yours is only one.

I can't imagine what else θεόπνευστος can mean when used by someone like Paul.

So the recasting under divine inspiration of an ancient flood story to convey a theological message is a "lie?"

If it is portrayed as a historical account, and it is not such, then it seems rather clear that there is untruth deliberately communicated—i.e., a lie. Now, if you can demonstrate beyond doubt that such accounts are not meant to portray history, then I will reconsider. But, otherwise, I am not sure.

Who says it's a 20th century text book? Just because it was written by ancient Hebrews doesn't mean its not history. They might have written different than the way we write doesn't mean it's not factual. To make the claim that it's not factual has no basis in fact. There is no evidence other than man made science that Genesis isn't true. The belief that Genesis is not true is based not on Scripture but on science. Science which has only made made theories and man made suppositions of an ancient time.

Pardon me, but I do not think you read my post very well. If you have not noticed, I am the one here defending the historicity of Scriptural claims. I never said any of the things you said I claimed. I am making the point that, typically, Scripture is treated as if it is a 20th Century history textbook by atheistic/secular-type people—frankly, the way it is being treated here.

Please make sure you are sure of what people are saying before you respond to them, especially since, like me, they just may be on your side.
 
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Speedwell

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I can't imagine what else θεόπνευστος can mean when used by someone like Paul.



If it is portrayed as a historical account, and it is not such, then it seems rather clear that there is untruth deliberately communicated—i.e., a lie. Now, if you can demonstrate beyond doubt that such accounts are not meant to portray history, then I will reconsider. But, otherwise, I am not sure.
That's a pretty bald dichotomy you've got there--either 100% accurate literal history or a lie. In fact, whenever history is written as a narrative, there is tension between facticity and the literary purpose of the author. They way this is handled varies even today and has varied considerably over time. Ancient writers handled it differently than we do today, but it was still history to them and their readers.



Pardon me, but I do not think you read my post very well. If you have not noticed, I am the one here defending the historicity of Scriptural claims. I never said any of the things you said I claimed. I am making the point that, typically, Scripture is treated as if it is a 20th Century history textbook by atheistic/secular-type people—frankly, the way it is being treated here.
Pardon me, but that's the way you people insist that it be treated; we're just throwing it back to you.
 
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TaylorSexton

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That's a pretty bald dichotomy you've got there--either 100% accurate literal history or a lie. In fact, whenever history is written as a narrative, there is tension between facticity and the literary purpose of the author. They way this is handled varies even today and has varied considerably over time. Ancient writers handled it differently than we do today, but it was still history to them and their readers.

Where did I make such a dichotomy? Can you give me a quotation? I never said that historical accounts have to be "literal" (an often used yet never defined term) to be true. For example, I am convinced that a literalistic understanding of the seven creation days is not the only possible and faithful way to understand Genesis 1. However, it seems rather difficult to read the flood account and think that the writer is trying to portray a fable of some sort. There is significant detail given, too much so for it to be a fable, in my estimation.

Pardon me, but that's the way you people insist that it be treated; we're just throwing it back to you.

I actually insisted the exact opposite at several points in this conversation. Opposition typically demands, in the same way that Fundamentalists demand, that Scripture be a science textbook, which is evidenced by the severe scientific scrutiny it often is subjected to by these groups.

But, more importantly, why this unfairness, saying that I am insisting upon things which I am not? Why this "you people" rhetoric? With whom am I being (likely unfairly) grouped? I am only "insisting" that Scripture be treated fairly, according to what the biblical writers meant, not what we assert it must mean.
 
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Larniavc

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speculation
It's not speculation. We know it happened in the Cheetah. But not in other animals (like whales and dolphins and other air breathers).

What is your explanation for it not happening?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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The absolute absence of energy is absolute zero.


Again, this is not what thermodynamics is about...
The civil war began in 1860, but it is not observable. It was observable then, but no longer.

/facepalm

There's plenty of empirical evidence to demonstrate that that war happened. And none of it relies on "eyewitnesses" alone.

God used to communicate with man directly but no longer. If you reject that which was recorded in the past because you can't personally observe it, then you obviously deny that anything in history actually happened.

No, that's not how historical sciences work either.
That which it comprises does.
No planet, no star and no moon in thie universe will prevail. All will eventually be destroyed.

Thermodynamics is about workable energy and heat.
It's not about "disappearing" matter.
Did you have a DNA test run to see if your kids are your own?

I could, if I wanted to.

Can you prove your mother loved you?

The 36 years track record, suggests that she does.

Can you prove to me right now what brand computer you're using?

I could, if I wanted to.

If not, all you have is belief.

Nope. None of these examples are in the same league as faith-based beliefs.
Your religious beliefs are unfalsifiable.
Every single example you gave above, are not.


Anyone can be a skeptic. Christians demonstrate God's love by the way they live.

The way a christian (or anyone else) lives, only demonstrates what kind of person that person is and nothing else.

No, God requires people to acknowledge that they have sinned and that they need a Savior for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus Christ is that savior. The offer of salvation is there but you have to accept it. Closing your eyes to the existence of God is not rational thinking. It's more like rebellion. The knowledge of good and evil is intrinsic.


You just made a big deal about needing to have "faith". Faith-based positions are not rational.

It dates back to Adam.

Ow, you are a creationist? A YEC?


Baby eating monsters and atheists are both lost in their own sin, so how is one superior to the other


I should report you for that incredible insult.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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The problem is that you haven't demonstrated that Scripture MUST mean X and ONLY X. Can you demonstrate that with any examples?

Again, not the point. But it's clear that you aren't interested in the actual point.
 
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