Suppose Both are Incorrect

[bhar]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

 

[2KnowHim]

After my Grandmother passed away, my Mother had a dream also, her Mom, (my Grandma), came to her and said "If I had only known then, what I know now".....

And yes, I believe with all my heart He doesn't just like us, but loves us so much.
God "is" Love, it's "who" He is, not just something He gives, it's His nature to Love, anything less, would be to go against His Nature. Even in Judgment He is still Love, Light, and Life.

I had heard people say, seek His Heart not His hand, that was never a reality to me till, I lost one of my best friends and co-worker, for 14yrs. When she passed away at the time I was so young in the Lord, and was taught the nature of God by men, it wasn't until this that I began to Truly understand. See in my eyes she wasn't a Christian, so she was in eternal torment, which in turn, put me with her. I was in such a bad place, or at least it felt that way. Until one night I was praying, and asking the Lord why it had to be that way, to make a long story short, this was one of the first things that I heard from Him, and was taken back so much, I mean we talk to Him we never expect Him to talk to us right? And this is what I heard "She is with Me". That sent me on a search like never before, I found out, that the nature of God cannot be taught, it must be experienced one on one. It's not about Religion, it's about Relationship. So now I can assuredly say, He loves me, and everyone, and no matter what we face tomorrow, that will never change, because He changes not.

Blessings

 

[timbo3]

The apostle Paul wrote that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism".(Eph 4:5) Jesus said that the "one faith" or way to life would be difficult, saying that "narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:14)

This "one faith" is first called "The Way" at Acts 9:2 and later again at 19:9. Thus, there is only "one faith", one "way", not the over 41,000 different so-called "Christian" denominations among almost 2.3 billion people that profess Christianity.(Atlas of Global Christianity, 2010)

The apostle Paul gives some identifying marks of true Christianity, saying that "with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation."(Rom 10:10)

It is therefore more to being a true Christian ("Christian" means imitating Christ) than just sitting and listening to a sermon or have a priest go through a tradition. It means following in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) and proclaiming what he proclaimed, "the good news of the kingdom".(Matt 24:14; Mark 1:15)

The apostle Paul further said at Roman 10, quoting from Joel 2:32: "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Thence, those who exercise faith in Jehovah God, sharing with others the hope that the true God provides through the "kingdom", a heavenly government that Jesus taught his disciples to pray for at Matthew 6:9, 10, that will bring genuine peace to the earth.

In so doing, Jesus made a priority the sanctifying of God's name, Jehovah, as first and foremost, saying: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth."

Hence, a true Christian will seek to sanctify God's name of Jehovah, telling others of the hope of the earth becoming a paradise that was his original purpose when he created Adam and Eve. Jesus reaffirmed this, telling the Jewish evil-doer to his side while on the torture stake: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”(Luke 23:43)

 

[madyjae]

My only problem with the whole thing is the many catholics that have said to me that their "church is the one true church" as if I'm wrong. I've never said anything like that to them. If that is the way they choose to worship with others, that is their choice, but don't go trying to tell me I'm wrong. It's so rude!

 

[Soulgazer]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant

Protestant is just the daughter of Catholic. However, there should be enough to get you started.


I won't tell you how to get there, as that is highly subjective----- But we Christian Gnostic believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light, and no one gets to the father except through Him. That means that we consider everything else ever written about God to be erroneous at best, so we filter everything through the Gospels, and use reason to find the steps that lead to gnosis, or experiencing God.


There are all kinds of variations on the central theme---denominations up the kazoo. Keep looking, you'll find one.

 

[christianmomof3]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity.
...
But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning.
...
Were we taught ...that God was kind, gracious, and close?
...
We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

I agree that we all probably have a lot of incorrect concepts about God. I think that those people who think they know for sure exactly what God is like and what He wants are going to be suprised at some point.
I agree that none of us really know the mind of god for sure.
When I became a Christian, I was taught that God is love and that He loves us and I do believe that He loves and likes us.

 

[Phantasman]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

One cannot fault churches as a whole for bringing the Gospel forward through the ages. Even the Catholics have played a part in the protection and spreading of the words of Jesus, even if there was a trade off placing in Latin dominance through the Dark Ages. This may have been Gods plan for all we know.

I go to a Pentecostal church with my wife, and sometimes learn a few things. But my studies at home, in prayer and reading, teach me more. And it's not just the Bible but all the early scriptures, as many as I can get my hands on, and read for myself with prayer and understanding.

It beats following some man behind a pulpit who I don't know too well.

 

[Albion]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

Hmmm. You express yourself well and make a lot of sense. Still, I have belonged to both Catholic and Protestant churches and would assess them differently from your statement. As for the Catholic view--sure. No question that a wrathful God underlies much of Catholic theology, even in today's more PR conscious church. But as for the Protestants...some yes and others no. The ones I've been closest to are ANYTHING BUT what you've experienced. I hesitate to identify particular denominations, but I'd say there are two entirely different styles among the churches that are generally called "Protestant."

Therefore, choose the right one, avoid the others.

 

[Unix]

Do we have to know what we can GET from God? I know the belief changes a person, therefore I dig deeper and deeper in theology, the Bible, an Apocryphal work (4 Esdras), Patristic and Early Church Fathers. Attending Church is exciting. Sometimes I can feel when I get blessed (for example by the priest).

I have never been a Christian who thinks much about how God is (kind or whratful). But I have been an atheist for a period.

I don't need to get something.

 

[timbo3]

My only problem with the whole thing is the many catholics that have said to me that their "church is the one true church" as if I'm wrong. I've never said anything like that to them. If that is the way they choose to worship with others, that is their choice, but don't go trying to tell me I'm wrong. It's so rude!

If a person feels that their "church is the one true church", then should they not be able to prove by Scriptural evidence that this is true. For example, what are just five ways that identifies a true Christian ? Three are mentioned below.

(1) Jesus said at John 8:31, 32, that "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” What It Means: Jesus ’ “word” means his teachings, which came from a higher source. Jesus said: “The Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (John 12:49)

In prayer to his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, Jesus said: “Your word is truth.” He frequently quoted God’s Word to support his teachings.(John 17:17; Matthew 4:4, 7, 10) True Christians, therefore, ‘remain in his word ’—that is, they accept God’s Word, the Bible, as “truth” and the ultimate authority for their beliefs and practices.

Who Fit the Pattern Today ? According to the Vatican's Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, adopted in 1965 and quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "It is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the [Catholic] Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence."

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, the New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "They regard the Bible as their only source of belief and rule of conduct."

(2) At John 17:14, Jesus told his heavenly Father of his genuine disciples: "I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."(John 17:14)

What It Means: Being no part of the world, Jesus was neutral in the social and political conflicts of the day. "If my kingdom were part of the world, "he explained, "my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source."(John 18:36) He also urged his followers to shun attitudes, speech, and conduct condemned in God's Word.(Matt 20:25-27)

Who Fit the Pattern Today ? Regarding Christian neutrality, the New Catholic Encyclopedia asserts: "Conscientious objection is morally indefensible". An article in the Reformierte Presse (Switzerland) states that a report by African Rights, a human rights organization, on the 1994 Rwandan genocide (whereby an estimated 1.1 million were slaughtered in 100 days) established the participation of all churches , "with the exception of Jehovah's Witnesses".

(3) At John 13:34, 35, Jesus said: "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

What It Means: Christ told his followers to love one another the way he loved them. How did Jesus love them ? His love transcended the national and gender bias prevalent in his day.(John 4:7-10) Love moved Jesus to sacrifice his time, energy, and personal comfort in order to help others.(Mark 6:30-34)

Finally, Christ showed love in the greatest way possible."I am the fine shepherd," he said. "The fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep."(John 10:11) What religious organization has shown such love ? Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Presbyterian ?

When World War I broke out on July 28, 1914, Catholics rose up against Catholics, Protestants against Protestants, Methodists against Methodists, Presbyterians against Presbyterians. Over a decade after the end of World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”(A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930)

Who Fit the Pattern Today ? The book The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (by Edward Gibbon) observed that over the centuries those who professed to be Christians "have inflicted far greater severities on each other, than they had experienced from the zeal of the infidels [unbelievers]." A recent U.S. study found a strong link between religious people, most of whom identified themselves as Christian, and racial bias.

 

[JoJo50]

You said…”No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things” that’s not true, Do you honestly believe Jehovah God would show men his word, yet NOT let them understand? Jesus taught his Father’s words to men who served his Father. To men his Father sent to him ,(John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you). And (John 17:6 -I have manifested, (to make evidence by showing or displaying), thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word).

Of course those who choose not to do Jesus Fathers will, won’t be seen as Jesus spiritual family ,(Matt.12:50-For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother). And even if they believe or call on Jesus, they won’t make it to Heaven. because they don't believe it's his FATHER'S WILL ALL should be doing, (Matt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven). And they certainly WON’T understand God’s words, (Dan.12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand). As you can see, from God’s words, those serving him WILL…understand his words.they HAVE to, how else will they be able to teach those who’s truly seeking ,(Rom.10:2 -For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge).

Even if many REFUSE to believe, Jehovah God has many teaching the truth ,(2Cor.2:17-For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ). And (Colo.4:5,6- Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man). ANY… who want to truly serve the God of Israel, and follow his loving son Jesus. WILL understand God’s words, so that they can go make disciples before the end comes ,(Matt 28:19,20-Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen). peace

 

[WisdomTree]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

Just between Catholicism and Protestantism? You seem to have neglected a whole branch of Eastern Christianity such as Orthodoxy. They're not a small group either considering how there are over 350 million adherents worldside.

Also, in regards to Protestantism; they aren't a unified block as they tend to be the most divided in terms of doctrines of faith.

 

[Albion]

Just between Catholicism and Protestantism? You seem to have neglected a whole branch of Eastern Christianity such as Orthodoxy. They're not a small group either considering how there are over 350 million adherents worldside.

Also, in regards to Protestantism; they aren't a unified block as they tend to be the most divided in terms of doctrines of faith.

Your knowledge of Christian denominations is well above average, but remember that there still is good reason to classify all except the cultic churches as either Catholic or Protestant.

In fact, the government used this system with members of the armed forces until very recent years. The EO finally got them to change, and today everyone wants his own designation but, theologically, the old way actually made a lot of sense. The EO and RC are in agreement with each other on most practices and beliefs, differing mainly on the role and authority of the Pope.

 

[WisdomTree]

Your knowledge of Christian denominations is well above average, but remember that there still is good reason to classify all except the cultic churches as either Catholic or Protestant.

In fact, the government used this system with members of the armed forces until very recent years. The EO finally got them to change, and today everyone wants his own designation but, theologically, the old way actually made a lot of sense. The EO and RC are in agreement with each other on most practices and beliefs, differing mainly on the role and authority of the Pope.

But the EO and the RC have been separated for nearly a thousand years (despite it being a myth probably)! Lol.

I don't know about you, but I'd say that filioque, original/ancestral sin, doctrine of hell, among others are huge fundamental differences theologically. Sure the whole Roman Pope thing with the infallibility attachment is a huge obstacle, but problems persisted before that became a humangous issue.

 

[timbo3]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

Yes, both Catholic and Protestant "are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity." Catholicism ascended to power during the reign of Emperor Constantine (306-337 C.E.) It became the state religion when Roman Emperor Theodosius I (379-395 C.E.) banned paganism and imposed Trinitarian “Christianity” as the State religion of the Roman Empire.

French historian Henri Marrou (1904-77) wrote: “By the end of the reign of Theodosius, Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world.” Orthodox Catholicism had replaced true Christianity and had become a “part of the world.” This State religion was vastly different from the religion of Jesus’ early followers, to whom he said: “You are no part of the world.”(John 15:19)

Another French historian, and philosopher Louis Rougier (1889-1982) wrote: “As it spread, Christianity underwent strange mutations to the point of becoming unrecognizable. . . . The primitive church of the poor, which lived by charity, became a triumphalist church that came to terms with the powers that be when it was unable to dominate them.”

Of the Eastern Orthodox church, Timothy Ware (now called Kallistos Ware, born in 1934), an Orthodox bishop, in his book The Orthodox Church (1993), said concerning it: “Nationalism has been the bane of Orthodoxy for the last ten centuries.”(pg 77) Eastern Orthodoxy followed the theory of Eusebius of Caesarea (a contemporary of Constantine the Great).

Ignoring the Christian principle of separateness from the world, Eusebius reasoned that if the emperor and the empire became Christian, Church and State would become a single Christian society, with the emperor acting as God’s representative on earth.

Throughout the Middle Ages, both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic religions continued to be heavily involved in politics, worldly intrigues, and wars. Did the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century mark a return to true Christianity, separate from the world ? (note: the word Protestant is derived from those who protested against Catholicism, such as Martin Luther in 1517)

The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: “The Protestant Reformers of the Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican traditions . . . remained firmly attached to the views of Augustine, for whose theology they felt a particular affinity. . . . Each of the three main Protestant traditions of 16th-century Europe . . . found support from the secular authorities in Saxony [central Germany], Switzerland, and England and remained in the same position vis-à-vis the state as had the medieval church.” It is like painting a house a different color on the outside; but the house is the same.

Rather than bring about a return to genuine Christianity, the Reformation brought forth a host of national or territorial churches that have curried favor with the political states and actively supported them in their wars. In fact, both the Catholic and the Protestant churches have fomented religious wars.

In his book An Historian’s Approach to Religion (1979), Arnold Toynbee (British historian, 1889-1975) wrote concerning such wars: “They exhibited Catholics and Protestants in France, the Netherlands, Germany, and Ireland, and rival sects of Protestants in England and Scotland, in the brutal act of trying to suppress one another by force of arms.”

One result was the the Thirty Years' War (1618-48) that was called “one of the most terrible wars in European history,” according to The Universal History of the World.(John Hammerton, 1927) The basic cause of the war ? “The hatred of Catholic for Protestant, of Protestant for Catholic.”

And of World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”(A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930)

This also came true for World War II, for the churches of Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, were totally involved, in which German soldiers wore a belt buckle on which was inscribed the words Gott mit uns (God is with us). German soldiers wore this inscription in WWI as well.

Where then was the true Christianity that Jesus started, for all the churches were totally enmeshed with "the world" rather than following Jesus words to be "no part of the world" ?(John 17:16)

At Isaiah 2, it was prophesied that the the true Christianity that Jesus began, would come forth again, saying: "And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."(Isa 2:2-4)

Which of the religions of the world have fully implemented what Isaiah said, that of having ' beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, learning war no more ' ?

 

[Albion]

Which of the religions of the world have fully implemented what Isaiah said, that of having ' beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, learning war no more ' ?

All things considered--Christianity.

I'm confident that that conclusion can easily be defended.

 

[KimberlyAA]

I personally believe God loves all of humanity and that He especially is pleased with those who believe in His Son and do His will. That's what I get from the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Soulgazer]

Yes, both Catholic and Protestant "are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity." Catholicism ascended to power during the reign of Emperor Constantine (306-337 C.E.) It became the state religion when Roman Emperor Theodosius I (379-395 C.E.) banned paganism and imposed Trinitarian “Christianity” as the State religion of the Roman Empire.

French historian Henri Marrou (1904-77) wrote: “By the end of the reign of Theodosius, Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world.” Orthodox Catholicism had replaced true Christianity and had become a “part of the world.” This State religion was vastly different from the religion of Jesus’ early followers, to whom he said: “You are no part of the world.”(John 15:19)

Another French historian, and philosopher Louis Rougier (1889-1982) wrote: “As it spread, Christianity underwent strange mutations to the point of becoming unrecognizable. . . . The primitive church of the poor, which lived by charity, became a triumphalist church that came to terms with the powers that be when it was unable to dominate them.”

Of the Eastern Orthodox church, Timothy Ware (now called Kallistos Ware, born in 1934), an Orthodox bishop, in his book The Orthodox Church (1993), said concerning it: “Nationalism has been the bane of Orthodoxy for the last ten centuries.”(pg 77) Eastern Orthodoxy followed the theory of Eusebius of Caesarea (a contemporary of Constantine the Great).

Ignoring the Christian principle of separateness from the world, Eusebius reasoned that if the emperor and the empire became Christian, Church and State would become a single Christian society, with the emperor acting as God’s representative on earth.

Throughout the Middle Ages, both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic religions continued to be heavily involved in politics, worldly intrigues, and wars. Did the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century mark a return to true Christianity, separate from the world ? (note: the word Protestant is derived from those who protested against Catholicism, such as Martin Luther in 1517)

The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: “The Protestant Reformers of the Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican traditions . . . remained firmly attached to the views of Augustine, for whose theology they felt a particular affinity. . . . Each of the three main Protestant traditions of 16th-century Europe . . . found support from the secular authorities in Saxony [central Germany], Switzerland, and England and remained in the same position vis-à-vis the state as had the medieval church.” It is like painting a house a different color on the outside; but the house is the same.

Rather than bring about a return to genuine Christianity, the Reformation brought forth a host of national or territorial churches that have curried favor with the political states and actively supported them in their wars. In fact, both the Catholic and the Protestant churches have fomented religious wars.

In his book An Historian’s Approach to Religion (1979), Arnold Toynbee (British historian, 1889-1975) wrote concerning such wars: “They exhibited Catholics and Protestants in France, the Netherlands, Germany, and Ireland, and rival sects of Protestants in England and Scotland, in the brutal act of trying to suppress one another by force of arms.”

One result was the the Thirty Years' War (1618-48) that was called “one of the most terrible wars in European history,” according to The Universal History of the World.(John Hammerton, 1927) The basic cause of the war ? “The hatred of Catholic for Protestant, of Protestant for Catholic.”

And of World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”(A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930)

This also came true for World War II, for the churches of Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, were totally involved, in which German soldiers wore a belt buckle on which was inscribed the words Gott mit uns (God is with us). German soldiers wore this inscription in WWI as well.

Where then was the true Christianity that Jesus started, for all the churches were totally enmeshed with "the world" rather than following Jesus words to be "no part of the world" ?(John 17:16)

At Isaiah 2, it was prophesied that the the true Christianity that Jesus began, would come forth again, saying: "And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."(Isa 2:2-4)

Which of the religions of the world have fully implemented what Isaiah said, that of having ' beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, learning war no more ' ?

It was all foretold;

"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishment of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, (and) whom they took prisoner."

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."~ Apocryphal Vision of Peter

 

[timbo3]

All things considered--Christianity.

I'm confident that that conclusion can easily be defended.

The mountain of evidence is available for any sincere Bible student to see in the history books, that the churches of Christendom are extremely blood guilty.

For example, in the year 1209, Pope Innocent III (pope from 1198-1216) gave orders to slaughter the Cathari in 1209, a religious group that he considered as "heretics" that lived in Beziers, France, ending the lives of some 20,000 men, women and children at the hands of some 300,000 crusaders, led by prelates of the Catholic church. With this, he launched the Albigensian Crusade, the first crusade organized within Christendom against people who claimed to be Christians.

The cities of Albi, Carcassonne, Castres, Foix, Narbonne, Termes, and Toulouse all fell to the bloodthirsty crusaders. In such Cathar strongholds as Cassès, Minerve, and Lavaur, hundreds of the Cathari were burned at the stake. According to the monk-chronicler Pierre des Vaux-de-Cernay, the crusaders ‘burned the perfect alive, with joy in their hearts.’ In 1229, after 20 years of strife and devastation, Languedoc came under the French Crown. But the slaughter was not yet over.

In 1231, Pope Gregory IX instituted the papal Roman Inquisition to lend support to the armed struggle. Inquisition judges, mostly Dominican and Franciscan friars, were answerable only to the pope. Death by burning was the official punishment for heresy. Such was the fanaticism and brutality of the inquisitors that revolts broke forth in, among other places, Albi and Toulouse.

In 1252, Pope Innocent IV officially sanctioned the use of torture to extract truth from suspects. In 1555, under the command of Pope Paul IV (Gian Pietro Cardinal Carafa), a list of books that offended "faith and morals" was published as the first Index of Forbidden Books in 1559 (Under the Roman Inquisition, it tried and condemned Galileo in 1633).

Yet, some 50 years earlier, Pope Alexander VI (pope from 1492-1503) had abandoned all morals. He was noted of "his own personal chicaneries in office, including bribery, sexual assignations, live-in mistresses, and oral readings of pornography from the papal library.”(The Conquest of Paradise, 1991, pages 13, 16, by Kirkpatrick Sale)

He also murdered another boy when he was 12 years old (this was only his 1st murder) and then bought the "rights" to the papacy through splendid offers to the cardinals in 1492.

In 1478, with papal approval, the Spanish Inquisition was established at the request of King Ferdinand V and Queen Isabella I. Under this arrangement, Tomas de Torquemada, the first and most notorious grand inquisitor, executed thousands of reputed heretics.(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

Or of Catholicism's role before the second world war, that of Cardinal Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII in 1939) signing a concordat in Rome between the Vatican and Nazi Germany on July 20, 1933, giving massive support to Hitler that inevitably lead to World War II.

This is only "the tip of the iceberg" regarding the churches of Christendom. However, most will dismiss it. These never give serious consideration to what the Bible really teaches, but are satisfied with the "status quo" of the churches.

However, Revelation 18:24 notes that our Creator, Jehovah God, has seen such blood guiltiness, with it saying: "Yes, in her (Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion) was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

 

[Soulgazer]

You posted too quick, I'm not sure you saw my contribution....just saying that all of these events were foretold by Jesus in an Apocryphal vision to Peter according to this text---



"And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishment of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, (and) whom they took prisoner."

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."