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Supermisquotations

Keith Davies[sup]1[/sup] quotes two astronomers and
Jonathan Sarfati
[sup]2[/sup] of Answers in Genesis repeats the quotes saying:
As the evolutionist astronomers Clark and Caswell say, 'Why have the large number of expected remnants not been detected?' and these authors refer to 'The mystery of the missing remnants'.
Both of them give the impression that astronomers cannot explain the number of observed supernova remnants assuming an old universe. The Clark and Caswell paper is online. Both quotes are on page 301. As the reader can easily verify, "Why have the large number of expected remnants not been detected?" is a rhetorical question. And "The mystery of the missing remnants" is followed by "is also solved."

Davies also misquotes the astronomer Donald P. Cox. Cox's article is also online and the reader can check the page where the quote was taken. What Davies quotes is in bold and what he did not quote will be left in normal print:
The final example is the SNR population of the Large Magellanic Cloud. The observations (many collected in Mathewson et al. 1983) have caused considerable surprise and loss of confidence in simple models such as those in this paper.
The phrase "in simple models" changes the meaning considerably and thus the quote is out-of-context. More details on young-earth creationist misquotes on this subject can be found in the Misquoting and Paraphrasing section of the Supernovae, Supernova Remnants and Young Earth Creationism FAQ.

1. Keith Davies,"Distribution of Supernova Remnants in the Galaxy," in E. Walsh, ed., Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, (Pittsburgh, Creation Science Fellowship, 1994) Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp. 175-184. Accessed online on November 28, 2001.

2. Jonathan Sarfati, "Exploding stars point to a young universe: Where are all the supernova remnants?" Creation Ex Nihilo 19:46-48, June/August 1997. Accessed online on November 28, 2001.
 
Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous
It never ceases to amaze me that those who claim that the bible's story of genesis should be taken literally refuse to take the parts to the bible where it says "thou shalt not bear false witness" literally.

Actually you should finish the commandment: "... against thy neighbor." Those astronomers are not the neighbors of Keith Davies. ;-)
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by ardipithecus


Actually you should finish the commandment: "... against thy neighbor." Those astronomers are not the neighbors of Keith Davies. ;-)

Objection! Point of theology: Every living human is "my neighbor" in Christian theology.

And yes, that's a good point; misquoting someone blatantly seems a kind of false witness. "It's true! I heard him say that he killed his wife!" is false witness when applied to "Some idiot is claiming I killed my wife. She's right here, breathing! How could anyone have killed her?"
 
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Originally posted by seebs


Objection! Point of theology: Every living human is "my neighbor" in Christian theology.

And yes, that's a good point; misquoting someone blatantly seems a kind of false witness. "It's true! I heard him say that he killed his wife!" is false witness when applied to "Some idiot is claiming I killed my wife. She's right here, breathing! How could anyone have killed her?"

I can buy that. Of course I did put in a smiley on the comment. It is possible though that there are people out there rationalizing lying on grounds that the person is not a neighbor. Then there is pious fraud: the idea that the truth is served by lying to people to get them to accept the truth. Maybe they think it is justified just as I think everyone here would think that the Allies were justified in their lying to and about the Nazis. This lying saved many lives by tricking the Nazis to put troops in the wrong locations, etc.

Bear not false witness--that is low--
But "hear 'tis rumored so and so."

-- Gassalasca Jape quoted by Ambrose Bierce
 
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ashibaka

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Yeah, it's stupid. Keith Davies is being pretty dishonest, and someone needs to admit it.

Umm... ... ... yeah.

So... ... ...
so...

Did you hear about David and Johnathan's little tryst? Back in 1 Samuel 18:1-4, 1 Samuel 20:41, and 2 Samuel 1:26.

Yup.

...

Sure is quiet in this thread.
 
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DNAunion: There's another side to this coin.

I quote often and at length in an attempt to support my positions - to show others that what I am expressing is not just my own personal opinion. Yet because I do not fall squarely in with the "materialists" they often times - quite incorrectly - insist that I must have taken the quotes out of context (of course, they don't bother to check before falling prey to their kneejerk reflexes).

We should keep in mind that doing things like leaving material out (in which case ellipses must be used) and inserting material (in which case square brackets must be used) are quite legitimate practices when quoting others - they serve to streamline the quote (by omitting material irrelevant to the discussion) and to clarify the quote.

The key thing that disqualifies a quote from being legitimate is changing its meaning - if you take it out of context, or add/subtract words that alter the passage's meaning, you're guilty.

Here's something I was writing up in my personal notes a while back, sparked by the repeated - and quite false - accussations that I was misquoting others.

************************

DNAunion: Whenever the quoting of others is used extensively, the often-heard accusation of “quoting out of context” must be addressed. The problem does not arise when one selects from a passage just the statements that support his or her own position: the problem arises when one selects statements in such a manner that the final quote does not accurately reflect the meaning of the original passage. If the original meaning is retained, the quote is valid. There is nothing unethical about selectively quoting, or even inserting words into, or omitting words from, a quote, as long as the original meaning is left in tact.

For instance, consider the following:

“Although there is a dispute over the composition of the primitive atmosphere, we've shown that either you have a reducing atmosphere or you are not going to have the organic compounds required for life.” (Stanley Miller as quoted by Sean Henahan,Access Excellence, From Primordial Soup to the Prebiotic Beach: An Interview with Exobiology Pioneer Dr. Stanley L. Miller, October, 1996)

“Atmospheric chemists, meanwhile, had found what they considered fatal flaws in the mixtures of gases that Miller and his successors had used in their reactions. In the real atmosphere, they
pointed out, methane and ammonia would have quickly disintegrated under the influence of ultraviolet light. Most came to favor a more stable mixture of gases with drastically different chemical properties. …
… most atmospheric scientists now favor an early atmosphere of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, similar to the atmosphere today but with two major differences: it was free of oxygen (a later by-product of life), and it included thousands or even tens of thousands times as much carbon dioxide
(necessary to offset the lower solar luminosity). The only thing wrong with the carbon dioxide-nitrogen atmosphere is that it is useless for engendering life. Chemically it is all but inert. Pump it into Stanley Miller's flasks and jolt it with electricity (an experiment that Miller and others have
tried), and you will get.., carbon dioxide and nitrogen nothing more exciting than that.” (Jeffrey L. Bada, Cold Start. (Origins of Life on Earth), The Sciences, May-June 1995 v35 n3 p21(5))

DNAunion: First, Stanley Miller states that without the particular type of prebiotic atmosphere he modeled (a strongly-reduced atmosphere) the organic compounds required for life’s appearance will not arise. Jeffrey Bada then states that most contemporary atmospheric scientists favor an early atmosphere that differed from the type Miller modeled, and such a near-neutral atmosphere is all but inert – Miller himself has tried to produce organic compounds under such conditions with rather dismal results.

One might conclude from these two quotes that the appearance of life by chemical evolution alone is impossible, and indeed, if these two quotes are combined for use as premises to formulate a logical argument, this conclusion follows naturally.

MILLER: If Earth’s early atmosphere was not strongly reduced, then the organic compounds required for life would not have formed

BADA: The Earth’s early atmosphere was not strongly reduced

CONCLUSION: Therefore, the organic compounds required for life did not form


SELF-EVIDENT: If the organic compounds required for life did not form, then life could not have arisen by chemical evolution alone

1st CONCLUSION: The organic compounds required for life did not form

2nd CONCLUSION: Therefore, life did not arise by chemical evolution alone

Obviously, both Miller and Bada reject the conclusions drawn above and believe that naturalistic chemical evolution is sufficient to produce life. How then can the quotes be accurate if they are so diametrically opposed to the overall positions of the researchers? Surely I must have misquoted the researchers, right?

Wrong. Nowhere do the quotes claim that Miller or Bada now reject chemical evolution. Yes, the conclusions drawn above are inconsistent with their overall positions, but each of the quotes from which the first conclusion was drawn is consistent with the researcher’s views on the topics they discussed. The quotes are accurate representations of Miller’s and Bada’s views on the early atmosphere and its consequences. I have neither introduced words into, nor omitted words from, the quotes that alter their individual meaning. The statements convey the exact message Miller and Bada intended, and the original meaning has been faithfully retained. Therefore, the quoting is not done “out of context”.

The fact that the quoted individuals do not draw the same conclusion as is reached by the combining of their individual statements is immaterial as far as the charge of “quoting out of context” is concerned. Bada apparently believes that the organic compounds required for life’s emergence arose by some as-of-yet-unknown process that did not require a strongly-reduced atmosphere, and that Miller’s generalization is flawed. Conversely, Miller apparently believes the early atmosphere was strongly reduced and that the majority of atmospheric chemists are wrong. All of this is allowed by the quotes.
 
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MSBS

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DNAUnion,

    I don't think many people would find fault with that type of argument.  What is being discussed here are the many cases (and this is particularly true of creationist web sites I have looked at), where the quotes are taken vastly out of context or edited and presented as true quotes.  This has demonstrated on a couple of threads on this forum in the last couple of weeks.

 

For example: 

  
Originally posted by Stormy
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution: In his own Words…

Darwin's Theory of Evolution was summed up by Darwin himself, as follows:

“Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed. But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?” 
 

This is not what Darwin said-- it appears to be a deliberate misquote.  The actual paragraph is as follows:

Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed; but the very process of natural selection constantly tends, as has been so often remarked, to exterminate the parent-forms and the intermediate links. Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains, which are preserved, as we shall attempt to show in a future chapter, in an extremely imperfect and intermittent record.

taken from On the Origin of Species as posted here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/origin/oos6_1.htm

 

First posted here on the 6th to no response.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=380784#post380784

further study reveals the last part of the "quote" ;) to be taken from a completely different paragraph (which, BTW came BEFORE the paragraph that the first part was taken from), and reads as follows:

But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? It will be more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the Geological Record; and I will here only state that I believe the answer mainly lies in the record being incomparably less perfect than is generally supposed. the crust of the earth is a vast museum; but the natural connections have been imperfectly made, and only at long intervals of time.

note the failure to use elipses or brackets to denote the editing, and a willful intent to make it appear Darwin was saying something he was not.

 

BTW, the original misquote was first posted by Stormy in the other thread linked to above, but I think she had just taken it from a creationist web site and had posted it in good faith that the source she was using was honest-- this is not aimed at her honesty.
 
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Cantuar

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That's the problem; it isn't the people using those quotes on these pages who are dishonest, it's the sites they're getting them from. And the people posting the quotes on those sites must know very well that they're misrepresenting the authors, since they'd have to have read the original in the first place.
 
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DNAunion: MSBS, yes, I completely agree that the Darwin quote you posted is definitely illegitimate. I also agree that the couple of quotes that started this thread - those dealing with supernova remnants - are also illegitimate (though the "SUPERmisquotation" is a bit dramatic for at least one of them).

I took the thread off on a tangent, but one related to the original topic of misquoting.

My point was that many people quickly and automatically (i.e., "kneejerk reaction") jump to conclusions and start accusing people (such as me) of quoting out of context or misquoting authors if the meaning of the quote is not 100% in line with the purely materialistic worldview. If there is even the slightest hint that the quoted material shows any kind of "problem" with a mainstream position, then the person doing the quoting gets slapped in the face with the charge of misquoting. That's illegitimate on the accusers part, not the quoters part. As one example, there actually are problems with the RNA World theory that can be found in mainstream material - quoting that material is quite legitimate, as long as the original meaning remains intact.

There's nothing wrong with people charging someone with a crime, if they present strong, actual evidence of wrongdoing. But basing charges on no more than a reflex reaction to something the complaintant finds "distasteful" or "unsatisfying" is wrong.
 
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MSBS

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Originally posted by DNAunion

My point was that many people quickly and automatically (i.e., "kneejerk reaction") jump to conclusions and start accusing people (such as me) of quoting out of context or misquoting authors if the meaning of the quote is not 100% in line with the purely materialistic worldview. If there is even the slightest hint that the quoted material shows any kind of "problem" with a mainstream position, then the person doing the quoting gets slapped in the face with the charge of misquoting. That's illegitimate on the accusers part, not the quoters part. As one example, there actually are problems with the RNA World theory that can be found in mainstream material - quoting that material is quite legitimate, as long as the original meaning remains intact.

There's nothing wrong with people charging someone with a crime, if they present strong, actual evidence of wrongdoing. But basing charges on no more than a reflex reaction to something the complaintant finds "distasteful" or "unsatisfying" is wrong.

Well, poor scholarship is poor scholarship.  When someone goes to acuse someone else as you mention, I'd say the burden of proof is on them.  For the most part I think you see a lot of knee jerk reactions from science types just because about 90% of the time the quotes from anti-science people are out of context or falsly represented to be actual quotations when they are cut-and-paste jobs.  It's fairly easy to expose this kind of thing (especially when the original source is on-line) by posting the real quote, providing a link to where you got it, and letting readers judge for themselves.

I've seen a bit of your posting over on infidels (now and again I lurk there, but I'm not a regular poster), and I'd say you do sometimes get jumped on without a critical analysis of what you are saying.  But then again, I think you have a bit of history over there so the knee-jerks have more to do with personal likes/dislikes of the people involved then argument for one side or other of a topic.  ;)
 
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