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Sunday Worship

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BWV 1080

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CharlesYTK said:
Actually this is why the "Church" observes Sunday. Remember it was only the Gentile church based in
CharlesYTK said:
Rome that instituted Sunday as the new Sabath. And it was ordered under Costantine to be observed on penalty of death. Constantine was a Pagan (contrary to popular stories in the Church) and never converted. He worshipped the sun god Mithra, and sacrificed to Mithra and demanded all Christians to observe the holy days of Mitha, including his birth on Dec. 25th, the Day of the Sun Sunday, ect. Here is the edict:





Sunday worship has been part of Tradition since the apostolic age. Ignatius of Antioch, an early father of the Church who learned his faith from the Apostle John, writes:

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master"
Ignatius,To the Magnesians,9:1(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:62




Sunday worship is also mentioned by other early orthodox Christian writers:



The Didache



"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).



The Letter of Barnabas



"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).


Justin Martyr



"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).


To believe in Saturday worship (and therefore believe that 99.9% of all Christians violate one of the Ten Commandments every week) is to believe that the Church, which is the "pillar and ground of all truth" (1 Tim
3:15) and against which the "gates of hell will not prevail" (Matt 16:18) is not trustworthy to deliver the Gospel.



CharlesYTK said:
I renounce all customs, rites, leagalisms, unleavened breads and

sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrew, and all the other feasts of the

Hebrew, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications,sanctifications,

and propitations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and

superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and

the food and drink of the Hebrew; in one word, I renounce absolutely

everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom,...But if it be with

deceit and hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a

genuine love of Christ, but with pretence to be a Christian that I

come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish

superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with

them, or secretly conversing with them and condemning the Christian

religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain

faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave

to me, as well as the anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be

set down with Satan and the devils."



Furthermore, I accept all customs, rites, legalisms and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontius Maximus, propitiations and feasts, the New Sabbath – The Sol Dei [Day of the Sun], all new chants and observances, all foods and drinks of the Romans in the New Roman Religion.




Do you have any documentation that this was actually written by Constantine? All I could find is that the first paragraph is a profession of faith for Jewish converts from Constantinople, with no date given:



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/jewish-oaths.html



Why would the Roman Emperor bother to write a liturgical confession of faith for Jewish converts?



The second paragraph is not in this source. What is its origin?
 
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muffler dragon

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Dear BWV:

The only thing that sticks in the side for me as far as following along with what many of these people say is the fact that many (if not all) of them were anti-semites. With that being the case, it's not hard to figure out why they would so easily dismiss the Sabbath as the day of rest.

Take care,

m.d.
 
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BWV 1080

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muffler dragon said:
Dear BWV:

The only thing that sticks in the side for me as far as following along with what many of these people say is the fact that many (if not all) of them were anti-semites. With that being the case, it's not hard to figure out why they would so easily dismiss the Sabbath as the day of rest.

Take care,

m.d.
Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John and a martyr, torn apart by animals in the Roman arena. I would not me so quick to judge him as a bigot and dismiss him. Barnabas was a Jew and it is sometimes speculated that he wrote the Book of Hebrews. I am not aware of any anti-semitic quotes from any of their writings. Furthermore, anti-semitism refers to a racial hatred of the Jews, not strongly disagreeing with Jewish beliefs. While no doubt many Chrisitans in the past have crossed this line, we must be careful when reading the early fathers. Their rhetoric towards Judaism is no harsher than their rhetoric against Arianism, Marcionism or any other belief system that made claims counter to Christianity.
 
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muffler dragon

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BWV 1080 said:
Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John and a martyr, torn apart by animals in the Roman arena. I would not me so quick to judge him as a bigot and dismiss him. Barnabas was a Jew and it is sometimes speculated that he wrote the Book of Hebrews. I am not aware of any anti-semitic quotes from any of their writings. Furthermore, anti-semitism refers to a racial hatred of the Jews, not strongly disagreeing with Jewish beliefs. While no doubt many Chrisitans in the past have crossed this line, we must be careful when reading the early fathers. Their rhetoric towards Judaism is no harsher than their rhetoric against Arianism, Marcionism or any other belief system that made claims counter to Christianity.
BWV,

I will provide you with the rationale as to why I make the statement. I do not have my resources available here at work.

As for the statement about Jewish beliefs versus them as a race, I have heard this statement before by a few. Such as: "We're not anti-semitic, but instead, anti-judaic." I don't draw a distinction between the two, and that may very well be where you and I differ tremendously. That's fine though.

m.d.
 
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BWV 1080

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Some Good Snippets from a longer discussion of St. John Chrysostom’s homilies against Judaizers (one of the anti-semitic patristic quotes presented in an earlier post): This is a scholarly website, with a balance historical analysis of the context of these quotes.

Text taken from http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6-react.html

These homilies are about Judaizers, not Jews. He attacks the Jews, using a standard method of classical rhetoricians, to win back their sympathizers to his own camp. Hence the lack of interest in converting Jews, and the irrelevence of the remark "und ebensowenig werden solche Reden faehig gewesen sein die Juden mit Sympathie fuer das Christentum zu erfuellen." That wasn't his purpose. Think "Quartodecimanism".

Actually, compared to later anti-Semitism, these sermons are exceedingly mild. True, they don't support the view that Judaism is on a par with Christianity. Given that Chrysostom believed that Judaism was a false religion, and one which clearly had a major attraction for some of his parishioners, I'm not sure what else he could have said. The florid invective was the Greco-Roman style; most of the offensive statements were just rhetorical devices.

What do the homilies really say? Contrary to the biased introduction, which reads all sorts of later attitudes into the Greco-Roman mind, Chrysostom certainly does not say of the Jews that God "hates them and has always hated them." He does say that he himself "hates them" and urges Christians to do so also, as he often urges Christians to hate sinners. Anyone familiar with Chrysostom's writings knows that this hatred did not mean that he desired to exterminate them or torture them, nor that he regarded them as inferior by nature. If they converted to what he believed to be the true religion, his hatred would at once cease.



HOM. I: The Jews, by rejecting Christ, were changed from children into dogs, the Gentile dogs were changed into children. The Jews refuse to accept Christ, whom they crucified, because they are grown carnal-minded; this is also why they have experienced catastrophes and been slaughtered by the Romans. In O.T. times, they failed to keep the Law; now when it has been abolished they insist on keeping it, but nevertheless during their fasts "dance barefoot" in the square and behave licentiously. [This is of course an interesting passage from the point of view of historians of Jewish liturgy, as are Chrys.'s remarks about the "theatricality" of the synagogue. Hence the oddity of Parkes' statement: "There is no material in these sermons for a study of contemporary Jewish life."] Jews do not worship God, because they reject the Son who alone reveals the Father; that they have the Law and Prophets just makes their impiety worse. What's really bad is that Christians admire them, think of them as holy people with a special relationship to God, attend their festivals, regard their holy places as holy, etc. This is tantamount to sharing their rejection of Christ. No benefit, such as healing powers possessed by the Jews, is worth the blasphemy of endorsing the Jewish rejection of Christ. Beware lest your wives, etc., are getting involved in Judaism, and even leading you into it!

HOM. II: Apart from repeating a lot of Homily I -- Keeping fasts at the same time as the Jews, being circumcized, and otherwise adopting Jewish customs is the same as going back under the Law, which has been abolished.

HOM. III: Do not keep fast at the same time as the Jews, even if that is the former church custom, because the Council of Nicea has declared a new uniform time. Church uniformity is vital. Also the Jewish Passover is invalid if it is celebrated outside Jerusalem, according to the Law, so it's clear that the Jewish rite is unLawful. Lent is not "because of" Pascha or the Crucifixion, but because of our sins, a preparation for the Eucharist; although useful for this purpose, it is not absolutely necessary to have a 40 day fast. Also, the Crucifixion took place on the "first day of the feast of unleavened bread and the day of preparation", which do not always coincide, so the Christian Pascha has no fixed relation to the Jewish year. And finally even if the Church's calendar computations are wrong, uniformity and concord are more important.

HOM. IV: The Jews want to carry off my flock. They urge fasting, but fasting is not good of itself, only when it is commanded by God. Why do you Judaizers want to be Jews when you are Christians? The Jews do not keep the Passover in Jerusalem, and thus they break the Law themselves. During the Babylonian captivity, however, being unable to get to Jerusalem, they did not celebrate the Passover, and thus paradoxically upheld the Law by not celebrating the services. Actually, God never really wanted sacrifices anyway; they were a concession to human weakness, allowed because otherwise the people would have sacrificed to idols instead. By limiting sacrifices to Jerusalem, and then destroying the city, God was weaning the Jewish people away from sacrifices. God is a physician. When the Jews are celebrating "STAY AT HOME AND WEEP AND GROAN FOR THEM." But Judaizers are more blameworthy than the Jews, and worst of all are ordinary Christians who fail to fight Judaizing trends in the Church.

HOM. V: The Jews reject Christ, but they should consider the various prophecies He made which have been fulfilled. That other people resembling Christ -- false messiahs -- have risen up as well is just a plot of the devil. The Jews expect to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple. This will not happen, because Christ said it will not and because the whole course of Jewish history has been described in the Prophets. Long detailed exegesis of the various dates in Daniel etc., showing that several destructions of the Temple are predicted at exact times, and that the last destruction, by the Romans, is final. Thus the attempt to rebuild under Julian failed, and note that in making the attempt the Jews admitted that their rites were useless without the Temple.

HOM VI: I speak on behalf of the Martyrs, "who have a special hatred" for the Jews who spilled the blood of Him for whom they shed theirs. [Said in a typically elaborate opening passage.] The Jews cannot say that their exile is a temporary punishment for those sins which they acknowledge, because they did worse things in the past without being exiled. On the contrary, it is because they crucified Christ, a sin they refuse to acknowledge. As the chosen people, the Jews would have been protected supernaturally had they not done this one thing. Nor can they claim that their political misfortunes are just the way things go -- again, God would have protected them from their enemies. Because the Law has been abolished and the miracles have ceased, the Jewish priests today are not really priests, but actors playing a part [an accusation Chrysostom elsewhere makes of numerous Christian sinners]. Synopsis of all five preceding sermons. Convert the Judaizing Christians back to orthodoxy. "Do you wish to see the temple? Don't run to the synagogue; be a temple yourself."

Anti-Semitism is a complex issue in the Fathers, since the position of the Jews, over the centuries, has changed from that of a sometimes violently anti-Christian religious and social force to that of a victimized people. The same Jews who mistreated and victimized the early Christians, something often overlooked in contemporary historical sources, have in our times been the victims of mistreatment themselves. This observation must be seen, of course, through the prism of the Zionist policies pursued in the establishment of the Israeli State and the subsequent violence against the Palestinian people, many of them Orthodox; but certainly, as civilized people, we must recognize and loudly decry the atrocities visited on the Jews (and many other peoples, of course) during WW II. Ultimately, then, as I shall emphasize below, we should not glorify or vilify the Jewish people, but understand them in historical context: sometimes as persecutors themselves, sometimes as the persecuted. A controversial but, I think, very fair book by Bernard Lazare, Antisemitism: Its History and Causes (Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press, 1995), makes precisely my point: that to call anti-Semitism a single thing and to discuss it outside of historical context is to deal wrongly with the historical record. He also rightly points out that anti-Semitism often stems from intolerance within Judaism itself.

As well, it must be remembered that the Fathers of the Church view Jews as the adherents of a religion, as a spiritual entity, not merely as a race. And even when they use the word race, they also mean it in a spiritual way, not simply as we use it today. (Thus "Judaizers" was an accusation made against non-Jews as well as Jews. And sinners are sometimes called a "race.") These distinctions are lost on contemporary dilettantes, who think that the curse on the Jewish race applies exclusively to people of a single blood line, rather than to any person who, like the hypocrites of the Jewish establishment of Christ's time, perpetuate anti-Christian sentiments. A "Jew" can, once more, be a Gentile who makes a mockery of Christianity within the Christian Church. It is obvious, then, that the term "Jew" is used in a number of very special ways in Patristic literature. (We True Christians, in fact, are called, by the Fathers, the "New Israel" and "Israelites," in the sense of remaining loyal to the whole Covenant of God's Providence which the Jewish religious leaders violated and defiled.)

Calling any Church Father anti-Semitic on the basis of ostensibly denigrating references to Jews, therefore, is to fall to intellectual and historiographical simple-mindedness. Applying modern sensitivities and terms regarding race to ancient times, as though there were a direct parallel between modern and ancient circumstances, is inane. This abuse of history is usually advocated by unthinking observers who simply cannot function outside the cognitive dimensions of modernity. My remarks in this regard apply not only to those who find literal anti-Semitism in the Fathers, but also to women, in our times, who, deviating from a true vision of femininity and a Christian understanding of the lofty place of the female in the Church, are quick to characterize statements in the Fathers about the FALLEN nature of women (which are often quite harsh) as symptomatic of a general denigration of females (as though fallen males are not also brutally portrayed in the Fathers). Post-Lapsarian and unrestored nature, whatever the gender of the individual, is corrupt and cannot be described in positive ways. (Restored men and women are another matter, and here equality in Christ prevails, whether as regards race or gender.) A clinical diagnosis of human spiritual ills is not the same thing as precriptive racism or intolerance. To suggest this is unfair. …
 
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CharlesYTK

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The simple way of viewing this is that God gave us the scriptures and the disciple themselves and the first believers all maintianed Gods ways according to those scriptures. So I don't care what traditions men came up with or what reasons they gave to justify them, they are still man made traditons and not God given ordinances. If you prefer mans rule over Gods, then be a Christian for it is entirely based on man made traditions. If you want to be a follower of God and do it according to the teachings of Messiah, then you will need to consider Apostolic Judaism. For this is the faith of the Messiah Yeshua and the disciples, both Jewish and Gentile followers of the 1st century.
 
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BWV 1080

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CharlesYTK said:
The simple way of viewing this is that God gave us the scriptures and the disciple themselves and the first believers all maintianed Gods ways according to those scriptures. So I don't care what traditions men came up with or what reasons they gave to justify them, they are still man made traditons and not God given ordinances. If you prefer mans rule over Gods, then be a Christian for it is entirely based on man made traditions. If you want to be a follower of God and do it according to the teachings of Messiah, then you will need to consider Apostolic Judaism. For this is the faith of the Messiah Yeshua and the disciples, both Jewish and Gentile followers of the 1st century.
Great, all we need is another sect claiming to be the long lost pure 1st Century Christianity(TM), complete with the requisite post-apostolic slide into apostasy, the arch-villain evil emperor Darth Constantine introducing pagan sun worship (no doubt assisted by the flying monkeys in the Vatican) and the true church dwindling down to three guys hiding in a cave in southern France.



The Church of Christ claims this, the Mormons claim this as do the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Adventists, the Gnostics and dozens of others, but they were wrong because after having vanished for nigh 2000 years, the true faith has suddenly returned! So what if it makes Christ a liar when he said the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt 16:18) or that he would be with us unto the end of the age (Matt 28:20) or that the Church is the pillar and foundation of all truth (1 Timothy 3:15) or that he promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). So what if all the martyrs who shed their blood for Christ in the first three centuries were apostate anti-Semitic heretics (of course none of us have had to face torture and death for our faith, but that is beside the point). They were wrong and we are right because only us, even after millions have studied the same scriptures for 2000 years, have finally figured out what the Bible means.



Give me a break.
 
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CharlesYTK

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Dear "Give me a break". Apostolic Judaism is not a denomination. It is a technical description of what the first century church was. They met in the synagogue, observed Torah and all of what was Judaism. They kept the Sabath and feasts of the Lord. Your remarks and sarcasm will never change the historical facts. You should consider that in Revelation 12:17, and 14:12 it describes the true believers of the last days in this way, "They keep the commandments of Gad, and have the testimony of Jesus the Christ."

Yes they do both. The Church does not.
 
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lionroar0

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Charles then the burden on proof rests on your shoulder. Where's is your proof that the Church does not?

Yes they met in the synagogue till they were no longer welcomed and also they were an underground church when they were blamed for the burning of Rome by Nero.

Actually the Church does observe the sabbath. We have Sarurday worship but it's not obligatory since it's not the Lord's day as it was taught by the apostles.
 
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BWV 1080

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Charles,

Does Apostolic Judiasm affirm the Trinity as described in the Nicene Creed below?:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I ask this because I am coming across groups like this:

We therefore confess both the Father and the Son. We just do not feel compelled to confess this according to other men's creeds or dogmas. Because the Scriptures teach the fulness of the Godhead bodily was in Jesus, we reject the trinity doctrine that there are three gods represented in three distinct persons. The first followers of the Messianic Judaism of Jesus did not know of a trinity doctrine. It was not formulated until 325AD and is therefore not a binding Messianic doctrine of the New Testament Messianic faith. No true Jewish Messianic believer in Jesus or a Messianic Gentile convert believes in a trinity of Gods.
http://jesus-messiah.com/resources/statements.htm
 
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I Wreck n Sow

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Hi Awl...?
What are ya carvin up tonight? Wood, brick, stone, silver, gold? The stock of a tree? Gods sabbath? Mans day of rest? Break one- broke them all (awl) you are a transgressor! law AND the testimony? Law (Jews) or testimony (gentiles). Will 10 men take ahold of the skirt! Yup! Will the 12 take hold of the perpetual covenant that will not be forgotten? Yup! Wanna be among them?
 
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DanielRB

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Hi All, :wave:

It's sad to see these kind of discussions grow into such bickering between believers. :(

Please, let's try to avoid the pitfalls of offending our brethern in Christ.

Now, to the OP:

I believe that the Sabbath is from Friday evening to Saturday evening, the seventh day of the week. I don't believe that there's any Scriptural backing to the idea that the Sabbath "changed" from this time to 24 hours later.

However, I believe that Christians are not required to obey the Sabbath. Christ himself said he worked on the Sabbath:

"And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. " (John 5:16-18, ESV)

Paul said, as has been quoted before:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17, ESV)

I think what's clear here is that Paul said not to judge one way or another on Sabbath observance; don't despise someone for not observing it, and don't despise someone for doing so.

The verses in Colossians remind me of the time my wife and I were seperate for nine months after our wedding (because of immigration laws in the United States.) I longed for her presence--I loved gazing at her pictures, hearing her voice on the phone, touching the things she touched, etc. But when she came, I enjoyed her physical presence. Sure, I still looked at her picture on occasion, but I would rather look at her actual prsence, not a picture. I'd rather talk to her face-to-face, not over the telephone.

Therefore, I enjoy the substance far more than the shadow. The shadow was nice, but I'm not going to focus on it. The shadows did their work; now the reality is here.

Paul says elsewhere:

"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;" (Romans 14:5-10, ESV)

So we are not to judge each other on this.

Bon wrote:

Bon said:
2. Yahshua commands us to keep His Fathers Ten Commandments (Of which the Sabbath is the fourth Commandment) authoritatively and very clearly (Matt. 19:17, Lk. 10:28 and Ju. 12:50). Indeed, He clearly says that the keeping of His Father’s Commandments is a condition for inheriting eternal life.
In the above verses, nothing is mentioned about the Sabbath. In Matt 19:17, Jesus talks about certain (five) of the Ten Commandments, and added love your neighbor, which is not in the Ten Commandments. In Luke 10:28, only the two greatest commandments are mentioned (loving God and loving your neighbor); neither one are found in the Ten Commandments. In John 12:50, no reference is made to the Ten Commandments.

Some might say that the Ten Commandments sum up what love for God and love for your neighbor means; however, it is completely possible to obey the Ten Commandments perfectly without loving God or loving your neighbor. You can obey out of duty or fear, but obedience out of love is not necessary.

I don't think there's clear Scriptural directions on when the Church should meet. There's quite a few references to Paul visiting the Synagogues on Sabbath, and a few references to believers meeting on the first day of the week (as well as every day--see Acts 2:46). Let's follow the Scriptural injunction not to judge each other on these days. I have stated some of the reasons why I don't think it's important; but if the Sabbath helps someone in their walk with God, I would never suggest that they must stop.

In Christ,

Daniel
 
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CharlesYTK

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Colossians said:
Christ is our Sabbath. And this stands to reason, for He is also all our law.
Yes and our general and executioner as well I suppose as he supposedly lead the church into the inquisition to kill million of Jews and protestants, the crusades to kill millions more and then to bring things up to date, be advised that the SS officers in chage of the death camps in Genmany were Christains who proudly wore large belt buckle with the inscription, "Jesus is Lord". There are currently 6000 protestant denominations and growing, and none agree with each other.
 
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BWV 1080

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CharlesYTK said:
NO! They did not and those who follow this line today do not. Yeshua is God, and was with God and through him all things were created. See John Chapter 1.

The traditons and creeds of man, have little value.
Then by the rules of this forum, you cannot post here:

Rule No. 6 - "Christians Only" Forums

6) Some forums on this website are provided for Christian discussion only as indicated in the Category Title. If we're going to have Christian-only forums, then we need to define who can post there. For that to happen, we need to define who we consider is a Christian for the purposes of posting in the Christian-only forums. This is not for any other reason. We make no aspersions on the person's salvation, faith or beliefs. It's only to ensure that posts in the Christian-only forums are of a particular type that conform to the contents of the Nicene Creed, which we use as it has been used for millenia by the church to define the boundaries of orthodoxy within Christianity. The contents of the Nicene Creed conveniently summarizes the main doctrines held by Evangelical Protestant & Catholic Christianity since the beginning of church history to battle heresy. It summarizes issues like the Trinitarian nature of God, the Divinity of Christ and other basic doctrines of orthodox Christianity that are agreed upon by all major Christian denominations and churches. We do not expect Christian members to accept the actual Creed - we expect them to agree to its contents only. These doctrines are listed below:


Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)


*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Members who consider themselves Christians but who do not adhere to the contents of the above creed (e.g. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians) are not allowed to post in Christian-only forums or use the Christian icon (use the LDS, JW or Other-Church icon instead). Such members can however post in the other open forums. Please note: this rule is not meant to label such members as not "Christian" - this rule is mainly to ensure that posts in the Christian-only forums conform to general orthodox Christian doctrines, and is not designed to exclude members.
 
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