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The church of God is from OT to NT as we see in Heb 11.OK, so the woman being with child is the church? We read later that the child is to rule all nations with a rod of iron (12:5), a clear reference to Jesus Christ. So does the church give birth to Jesus? The text does not warrant your exegesis.
The passage 11:19-12:17 is in catholic understanding a central passage about Mary. And the ark seen in the temple in heaven proves to be not the old ark, but the new ark, who is, Mary.
Just to reiterate: The church did not give birth to Jesus, it was Jesus who gave birth to the church.
The woman in Revelation 12:1 is not a church. It is not possible. It obviously twists scripture too hard.
I guess we all agree that no scripture calls Mary "the ark of the New Covenant"Mary the ark of the new covenant a super short exegesis of scripture
We have an understanding of the New Covenant that actually has the ability to quote the New Covenant itself as we find it in Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 "I will make a NEW Covenant... THIS is the Covenant I will make...".One observation on the difference of SDA theology with other theology, is their weak understanding of the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant.
You are right on that point.So, there is a new covenant and there is an old covenant.
There is no such thing as "new ark of the covenant" in all of scripture. I assumed we both knew that.Likewise there is an old ark of covenant, and there is a new ark of covenant.
hmmm.. that speaks volumes - you are saying that what is at play is something not found at all in all of scripture.This is what is at play here.
ok so since you post not one single text for "ark of the New Covenant" (much less Mary ark of the New Covenant) -- We need to look for where there is something in your text that comes from the actual Bible.Since you keep bringing up this reference. (rev 11:19)
This is one of the scriptures that SDA interpret very differently from the catholic church.
In the RCC this is a powerful scripture (taken with what follows that is) pointing to Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. Mary is in heaven, and Mary is then crowned as the queen of heaven.
Other scriptures point to this as well. Probably just google "Mary as the ark of the new covenant", and you will find a lot of resources on the catholic understanding.
Indeed - Christians pray to God daily and read their Bibles daily, we have devotions daily..In another thread, you said we should worship every day of the week
The subject is the "Sabbath" not "20 minutes of worship on any given day". Read the title. Read the actual Sabbath commandment -- take a look at the texts we keep referencing., so seriously, what is the problem? Either worshipping every day of the week is acceptable or it isn’t.
yep. But that did not delete the Ten Commandments or the Sabbath commandment.Christ told us to pray without ceasing.
He was not resurrected weekly, not once every seven days etc.By the way, considering our Lord rose on Sunday, and the Holy Spirit descended while the Apostles were breaking bread on Sunday, it is clear this is a special day in the New Testament.
Step one for a thread about "what day is the Sabbath" should be to actually quote the Sabbath commandment as a rudimentary basic point of reference since avoiding the actual Sabbath Commandment text -- could lead some folks to suppose that any time one says a prayer or reads a Bible verse - they just turned that day into the weekly "Sabbath".*Permission to post in full*
If we believe we have to "honor the Sabbath day," why aren’t Catholics obliged to attend Mass on Saturday instead of Sunday?
@The Liturgist
One of the most appealing teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is their insistence that Christians must obey the Ten Commandments . . . all ten of them. They rightly expose the errant thinking among many Protestant Christian sects that claims, “We don’t have to keep the Ten Commandments for salvation anymore.”
Of course, as Jesus reminds us:
Given our agreement on this point, the Seventh-day Adventist commonly asks: “If you believe we have to keep the Fourth (our Third) Commandment, why aren’t Catholics obliged to attend Mass on Saturdays instead of Sunday?”
We can draw our first source from the the Catechism, which declares:
Thus, the Third Commandment is “fundamentally immutable” because it’s one of the Ten Commandments, which Jesus said we must follow to attain everlasting life. However, the Catholic Church teaches the particular day we celebrate in keeping the Third Commandment to be ceremonial, or an accidental component of the law that is changeable. Here’s how the Catechismputs it:
Are there biblical data that concur with this teaching of the Church? Absolutely!
St. Paul tells us that the ceremonial aspect of the old law—the Sabbath day itself—is no longer binding for the Christian faithful:
Clearly, the Sabbath is “a mere shadow”—that is, fleeting by nature. And “shadow” (Greek, skian) is the same word used by the inspired author of the letter to the Hebrews for the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant—also no longer binding on Christians.
Moreover, it is important to note how Paul uses the same division of “festivals” (annual holy days), “new moons” (monthly holy days), and “Sabbaths” (the weekly holy days) that the Old Testament uses in 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:12-13, 31:3; and elsewhere, when referencing Jewish holy days. Clearly, along with the yearly and monthly holy days—which no Christian today claims is binding upon believers in Christ—the Sabbath is included in what Paul calls a mere shadow.
When Paul teaches that Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath, he speaks of the holy days that were specific to the Jews. He is not saying—and does not say—that we do not have to keep any holy days at all. In context, Paul is dealing with Judaizers, who were telling Gentile Christians they had to be circumcised and keep the Old Covenant law that had passed away, which would include the Sabbath and other holy days, in order to be saved. Some overlook this fact when they use Paul’s epistle to the Romans against the necessity of keeping the Third Commandment.
During the first few decades of Church history, the question of Jewish-Gentile relations with the Church and the law was a hot topic. As long as the Temple was standing, Christians of Jewish descent were free to attend the Temple and keep certain aspects of the Old Law, as long as they did not teach these things to be essential for salvation.
Many will claim the Catholic is in grave error here because Hebrews 4:9 declares: “So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.” And a surface reading here does appear to bind Christians to the seventh day. However, the context within verses 4-8 greatly clarifies things for us:
The context makes clear that the Jewish “seventh day” has been superseded, or, more properly, fulfilled, in “another day,” “a certain day,” that is a new “Sabbath rest for the people of God.” What day is this? In Hebrews, it is not so much a day at all as it is a person: Jesus Christ. In fact, the entire discussion of “the Sabbath rest” disappears into the discussion of our “great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God” (4:14ff). It is Jesus Christ himself who actualizes the “rest” that was merely foreshadowed by the Sabbath.
“End of discussion,” say our Protestant friends.“There is no longer any such thing as a day that binds Christians in the New Covenant. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, not some day we have to go to church.” And they are actually correct, but only partially. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath rest in the sense that only he can actualize the “rest” the Sabbath symbolized.
In Hebrews 10:1-26, we see movement toward tagging on the Church as fulfillment of all that was merely shadow in the Old Covenant and not just Jesus Christ in the abstract. And this makes sense only when we understand that “the Church” is the body of Christ, or Christ himself extended into the world (cf. Eph. 1:22-23).
As Christians, we “enter into the sanctuary” through baptism—bodies washed with pure water—and the Eucharist—his flesh—thus enters the necessity of the Church.
So if Christians are bound to keep the third commandment, and it involves “meeting together,” but not on the Sabbath, what day are we commanded to meet?
In Scripture, whenever we see Christians meeting to worship the Lord, receive Communion, take up collections—apart from the synagogue—it is either “daily,” or especially, it’s “on the first day of the week” (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). It is true that you often see St. Paul entering into the synagogue on the Sabbath (Acts 13:14-44, 16:13, 18:4). However, in each instance, his purpose was to proclaim the truth about Christ to the Jews. These are not specifically Christian gatherings. But notice what we find in Acts 2:46:
Paul and his companions attended the temple, but “the breaking of bread” occurred in the house “churches” of Christians. “The breaking of bread,” by the way, is a Eucharistic phrase in St. Luke’s writings. For example, when Paul was in Troas in Acts 20:7, we read: “On the first day of the week, when we gathered together to break bread.” Luke 24:30-31 records that Cleopas and an unnamed disciple’s “eyes were opened,” and they recognized Jesus “in the breaking of the bread.” And according to Luke 24:1 and 13, this encounter was also on the first day of the week! Paul never says, “On the Sabbath, when we gathered to break bread.” Instead, the “breaking of bread” in Luke 24 and in Acts 20 occurs on the first day of the week.
It’s important to remember that when we talk about biblical “churches,” we mean the designated homes for “church” gatherings and specifically for “the breaking of bread.”
So those “homes” were actually house “churches” in which “the breaking of bread” happened, and it happened on the first day of the week: Sunday.
Sunday Is Not the Sabbath
If we believe we have to "honor the Sabbath day," why aren’t Catholics obliged to attend Mass on Saturday instead of Sunday?www.catholic.com
As well as sabbathblessings, you sidestep from the question of how to interpret the passage rev 11:19 - 12:17, in order to lecture on your topic the churchThe church of God is from OT to NT as we see in Heb 11.
As with sabbathblessings, I get the impression thatI guess we all agree that no scripture calls Mary "the ark of the New Covenant"
We have an understanding of the New Covenant that actually has the ability to quote the New Covenant itself as we find it in Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 "I will make a NEW Covenant... THIS is the Covenant I will make...".
You are posting as if you have not actually read the New Covenant. So while your pejorative statement above may be entertaining - facts speak louder than words. Try actually venturing to the point of quoting the New Covenant before claiming that you know something about it that someone else does not.
You are right on that point.
There is no such thing as "new ark of the covenant" in all of scripture. I assumed we both knew that.
details matter.
hmmm.. that speaks volumes - you are saying that what is at play is something not found at all in all of scripture.
It could be that you have a point here. One of the positions is based on scripture and the other is not. Suffice it to note - the New Covenant definition is actually IN scripture and not something that people make up ad hoc. The text matters.
SDA doctrine also has a poor understanding of the Eucharist / Lord's supper.ok so since you post not one single text for "ark of the New Covenant" (much less Mary ark of the New Covenant) -- We need to look for where there is something in your text that comes from the actual Bible.
Well we find "Queen of heaven" is in fact in the Bible. So you get at least partial points for that one.
Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make sacrificial cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to provoke Me to anger.
I would not apply that to Mary -- I assume you would not do it either.
As with sabbathblessings, I get the impression that
"my interpretation of scripture" = "the Word of God"
Both you and sabbathblessings are probably not yet able to comprehend anything but the SDA understanding.
I am starting to get the impression that the SDA system is a brilliant mind control system, to keep people locked in a theological system. You basically do not exegete the text, but you eisegese your own doctrines into the text. Which also means that further discussion is meaningless. Anyway, thanks for the conversation, and for helping me see this point.
We actually use scripture to interpret scripture and if you notice we always provide scripture references instead of using personal interpretations which we are told not to do. Prov 3:5-6As with sabbathblessings, I get the impression that
"my interpretation of scripture" = "the Word of God"
Both you and sabbathblessings are probably not yet able to comprehend anything but the SDA understanding.
I am starting to get the impression that the SDA system is a brilliant mind control system, to keep people locked in a theological system. You basically do not exegete the text, but you eisegese your own doctrines into the text. Which also means that further discussion is meaningless. Anyway, thanks for the conversation, and for helping me see this point.
At some point you need to state an actual fact. Pejoratives alone will not prove substantive.SDA doctrine also has a poor understanding of the Eucharist / Lord's supper
Until you actually read our statements of believes and the texts upon which we say they stand or fall.The uniformity of SDA doctrinal interpretation seems to be the writings of Ellen G. White
Indeed we do hold to the Bible doctrine on spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12) and that it includes "the gift of prophecy" 1 Cor 14:1-2 and that Ellen White is an example of someone with that gift., which many SDAs and the church itself officially regard as inspired prophecy
There is no such thing as "new ark of the covenant" in all of scripture. I assumed we both knew that.
details matter.
hmmm.. that speaks volumes - you are saying that what is at play is something not found at all in all of scripture.
It could be that you have a point here. One of the positions is based on scripture and the other is not.
You can of course find the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12Suffice it to note - the New Covenant definition is actually IN scripture and not something that people make up ad hoc. The text matters.
That is the spin that we get from the sola-tradition people at times since they cannot understand how sola-scriptura could actually work. It is like saying that they don't understand the Christian church emerging from the Jewish nation-church or they can't understand the Protestant reformation that came about as a result of protesting-Catholics finding flaws in their own traditions.As with sabbathblessings, I get the impression that
"my interpretation of scripture" = "the Word of God"
sola tradition again?Both you and sabbathblessings are probably not yet able to comprehend anything but the SDA understanding.
your efforts to avoid every scripture listed as it refutes your claims... noted.I am starting to get the impression that the SDA system is a brilliant mind control system
false accusation "noted".You basically do not exegete the text, but you eisegese your own doctrines
But we should not expect that much scripture-focus from sola-tradition participants -- apparently.Step one for a thread about "what day is the Sabbath" should be to actually quote the Sabbath commandment as a rudimentary basic point of reference since avoiding the actual Sabbath Commandment text -- could lead some folks to suppose that any time one says a prayer or reads a Bible verse - they just turned that day into the weekly "Sabbath".
Exodus 208 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
There are a bunch of details there that people may wish to avoid if at all possible.
You yourself should know this as well as anyone since your efforts always run aground on the texts, instead of your much-speculated "they try to prove their views using Ellen White". You have to admit that were your false accusation even half true there would be points where we would need to switch from sola-scriptura evidence to sola-ellen-white... it must be difficult to be reminded time after time - that such is not the case.
You're probably already aware of this thread. I think posts #1 and #4 are especially interesting.The uniformity of SDA doctrinal interpretation seems to be the writings of Ellen G. White, which many SDAs and the church itself officially regard as inspired prophecy, so in a sense it creates a magisterium more vast and more imposing upon members of the SDA church than that of the Roman Catholic Church, by far, since there exists infinitely more diversity of acceptable opinion on most issues in the RCC and other traditional churches, and much more toleration for theological diversity, despite Adventist claims to the contrary.
The 2 verses in revelation 11:19-12:1 is a good start.You have provided no evidence that Mary somehow turned into the ark of the convent, there is no scripture to support this.
Yes, maybe I should not, because I realize where most protestants will immediately go, not understanding that concept either. In order to not mess up matters too much, and not giving you more than you can chew, I will not go further into that concept.BobRyan said:
you mention "queen of heaven"
Right.At some point you need to state an actual fact. Pejoratives alone will not prove substantive.
Good. A good start.You can of course find the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12
To let you know, I was a sola scriptura for about 25 years. I have read the Bible through at least 3 times, and written through the new testament. I converted in 2019, and have limited grounding in catholic tradition. I try to take only what can be proved from Scripture.Try to at least consider - sola scriptura.
Hm well I try to be pedagogical in my responses, and I try to not go off on tangents, to keep a focus to the conversation. If you are referring to the scriptures about the temple, I did not go into that, because the topic at hand is, how to interpret the passage revelation 11:19. I see it in the immediate context, and take those contextual clues.your efforts to avoid every scripture listed as it refutes your claims... noted.
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