Sun, moon, stars

Spiritual Jew · Apr 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
And what makes things even a stronger case, is by comparing Matthew 24:15-31 with that of Daniel 12. Both record that there is an AOD involved, and during when that it is meaning it leads to a time of trouble, Matthew 24:21 calls it great tribulation. Then there is a deliverance from this time of trouble, which then leads to a resurrection of the dead at that time, this according to Daniel 12. Matthew 24:30-31 explain how the deliverance and resurrection occurs. Matthew 24:31 explaining the resurrection portion.

Based on the above, for the life of me I don't know how anyone can possibly think that Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century when Daniel 12 obviously isn't. And it's not just Preterists who insist Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century. Plenty of Amils who agree Matthew 24:30 involves the 2nd coming in the end of this age while insisting Matthew 24:15-21 is involving 2000 years ago, thus totally contradicting what is recorded in Daniel 12.

I'm obviously one of the Amils that you're talking about. You say all this, but what you have not done up to this point is give an explanation for what Jesus meant when He said that those in Judea would need to flee into the mountains when the abomination of desolation was seen and what He meant when He said woe to nursing mothers and pregnant women at that time. To you, it's just some kind of coincidence or something that those verses (Matthew 24:16 & 19, Mark 13:14 & 17) line up with Luke 21:21 & 23.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Clearly, this is involving what is recorded in verse 1 of this same chapter, that according to Matthew 24:15-21. If we apply Matthew 24:15-21 to the first century, that contradicts what is recorded in Daniel 12:2 in that case. Clearly, there was no resurrection of the dead as outlined in Daniel 12:2 that occurred in the first century. In this particular case, some interpreters apparently prefer to have Scriptures contradicting one another rather than ever admitting that their interpretations might not be correct after all.

You say things like this and, yet, you are not able to explain how what Jesus said in verse 16 or verse 19 can be understood figuratively rather than literally. Until you do that, your claims like saying that "some interpreters apparently prefer to have Scriptures contradicting one another rather than ever admitting that their interpretations might not be correct after all" mean nothing.

Interpreting Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as all being fulfilled in the future (or all in the past) just doesn't work. Jesus was asked 2 questions about two different things (one relating to the destruction of the temple buildings and one related to His coming at the end of the age) and there's no basis for thinking His answers to both questions were only recorded in Luke 21, but not in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 25, 2022

Hammster said:
In part I agree, though you are wrong in your usage of Revelation and Matthew.

Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
— Daniel 2:35

He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”
— Matthew 13:31-32

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
— 1 Corinthians 15:22-26

These indicate that Christ’s kingdom will grow until it fills the earth. When He returns, most people on earth will be saved.

Goodness gracious, that is not at all what any of those passages teach. The first two passages simply teach that there will be people in the kingdom in every part of the world. They are not saying that everyone, or almost everyone, will be in the kingdom.

And then the 1 Cor 15:22-26 passage has nothing to do with most people on earth being saved whatsoever. You are taking that passage completely out of context. That passage has to do with the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His future second coming. All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that time. Just like what Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. This has nothing whatsoever to do with most people being saved when He returns. Paul taught something very different from that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 where he indicated that there would be a mass falling away from the faith just prior to the return of Christ.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20

If you are thinking that this has something to do with most people on earth being saved, then you are badly misinterpreting this passage. Jesus was talking about making disciples in all nations and not saying that everyone in all nations would become disciples.

By the way, when Jesus said "I am with you always, even to the end of the age", was He saying He would be with His followers only until 70 AD since that is when you think the end of the age occurred?

Hammster · Apr 25, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Goodness gracious, that is not at all what any of those passages teach. The first two passages simply teach that there will be people in the kingdom in every part of the world. They are not saying that everyone, or almost everyone, will be in the kingdom.

And then the 1 Cor 15:22-26 passage has nothing to do with most people on earth being saved whatsoever. You are taking that passage completely out of context. That passage has to do with the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His future second coming. All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that time. Just like what Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. This has nothing whatsoever to do with most people being saved when He returns. Paul taught something very different from that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 where he indicated that there would be a mass falling away from the faith just prior to the return of Christ.

If you are thinking that this has something to do with most people on earth being saved, then you are badly misinterpreting this passage. Jesus was talking about making disciples in all nations and not saying that everyone in all nations would become disciples.

By the way, when Jesus said "I am with you always, even to the end of the age", was He saying He would be with His followers only until 70 AD since that is when you think the end of the age occurred?

Make disciples OF all nations, not IN all nations. And the scripture I posted supports that quite well. The King will be victorious over all His enemies.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 26, 2022

Hammster said:
Make disciples OF all nations, not IN all nations. And the scripture I posted supports that quite well. The King will be victorious over all His enemies.

So, you think "all nations" means everyone without exception in all nations which would mean you think Jesus expected literally all people to be made disciples at some point? If so, that's quite a stretch. And that would mean so far the church has utterly failed to obey that particular command.

And, yeah, of course He will be victorious over all His enemies. Do you think I believed otherwise?

Since you seem to believe that Jesus expected that one day literally all people in the world would become disciples, then do you also interpret the following to be saying that God was going to pour out His Spirit on literally all people?

Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

The context of this verse was in relation to what was happening on the day of Pentecost. Did God pour out His Spirit on literally all people that day? Or will He ever do that? No. That's clearly not what the prophecy means. And, yet, if you interpret it in the same wooden literal fashion as you interpret some other scriptures like Matthew 28:18-20 then that is the conclusion you'd have to draw.

And, speaking of Matthew 28:18-20, when Jesus said "I am with you always, even to the end of the age", was He saying He would be with His followers only until 70 AD since that is when you think the end of the age occurred?

Hammster · Apr 26, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you think "all nations" means everyone without exception in all nations which would mean you think Jesus expected literally all people to be made disciples at some point? If so, that's quite a stretch. And that would mean so far the church has utterly failed to obey that particular command.

And, yeah, of course He will be victorious over all His enemies. Do you think I believed otherwise?

Since you seem to believe that Jesus expected that one day literally all people in the world would become disciples, then do you also interpret the following to be saying that God was going to pour out His Spirit on literally all people?

Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

The context of this verse was in relation to what was happening on the day of Pentecost. Did God pour out His Spirit on literally all people that day? Or will He ever do that? No. That's clearly not what the prophecy means. And, yet, if you interpret it in the same wooden literal fashion as you interpret some other scriptures like Matthew 28:18-20 then that is the conclusion you'd have to draw.

And, speaking of Matthew 28:18-20, when Jesus said "I am with you always, even to the end of the age", was He saying He would be with His followers only until 70 AD since that is when you think the end of the age occurred?

Instead of answering for me, how about giving me a chance to reply first.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 26, 2022

Hammster said:
Instead of answering for me, how about giving me a chance to reply first.

Which question did I answer for you? If you mean the first one I asked I did say "If so...", which indicates that I wasn't saying for certain what your answer would be. I was just saying if your answer was what I thought it would be then I responded accordingly. So, I was not indicating that I wasn't willing to let you answer it for yourself. I was just saving some time by giving my response to what I understand your position to be. But, feel free to clarify your view.

It's difficult to have a productive discussion with you because you usually say so little and your comments are often vague without any details and we're left to guess as to what you're intending to say.

Hammster · Apr 26, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Which question did I answer for you? If you mean the first one I asked I did say "If so...", which indicates that I wasn't saying for certain what your answer would be. I was just saying if your answer was what I thought it would be then I responded accordingly. So, I was not indicating that I wasn't willing to let you answer it for yourself. I was just saving some time by giving my response to what I understand your position to be. But, feel free to clarify your view.

It's difficult to have a productive discussion with you because you usually say so little and your comments are often vague without any details and we're left to guess as to what you're intending to say.

Here’s where you answered (incorrectly)

Spiritual Jew said:
Since you seem to believe that Jesus expected that one day literally all people in the world would become disciples,

Not my answer. And you don’t have to guess as to what I’m saying. All you need to do is ask, and await my response. Like a normal conversation.

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