Summary of the Shut Door and what it was.

[Pythons]

Summary of the seventh month movement & Ellen White's involvement in it.

Time hack: 1818 - 1851
Location (s): New York & Maine
Players: George Storrs, Samual Snow, William Miller, Ellen White & her immediate religious contemporaries

William Miller ( Feb 15, 1792 - Dec 20, 1849 ) was a Baptist Minister who felt he had cracked the chronology code for the 2nd Advent of Christ...
...Miller initially realized this by 1818 via personal Bible study but did not go public with the information until August 1831.
...& in 1832 Miller submitted a series of 16 article via the "Vermont Telegraph" & was soon burried with interest by readers.

By 1834 there was so much interest in Miller's theory he produced a synopsis of it in a 64 page tract - which was titled...
..."Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, about the year 1843".

Miller's followers increased greatly from 1840 due to a religious named Joshua Vaughan Himes who was an experienced publsher...
...Himes, by 1842 had established the periodical paper "Signs of the Times" in effort to get the word out in-mass.
...It worked.

William Miller's message was: Repent & get ready - for Jesus will come in Spring 1843 or 1844...
...That was the TOTAL of Miller's message, there was NOTHING ELSE.

My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take posession of the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21,1844.

As history aptly demonstrates, Jesus did NOT return in the spring of 1843 OR in the spring of 1844....
...Spring 1843 = 1st disapointment / spring 1844 = 2nd disapointment.

Subsequent to the 2nd disapointment two members of the Millerite movement produced a compelling schema...
...That Christ would return on the 10th day of the 7th month using calendation which was alien to the Gregorian.
...The two men were George Storrs & Samuel Snow, their schema was called, The 7th Month Movement & True Midnight Cry.

Storrs and Snow presented their 7th month midnight cry view at the Adventist Campmeeting in early August 1844...
...August, September, October, a period of approximately 3 months was "the true midnight cry" whereas the Gospel was to be preached.
...Until the cry terminated 22 October 1844. Imagine someone screaming impending doom for 3 months and then it stops.
...That was the midnight cry.

William Miller rejected this view until literally the last moment when he finally gave in to Storrs and Snow...
...Miller wrote the following on October 6, 1844.

Dear Bro. Himes, I see a glory in the seventh month movement which I never saw before. Thank the Lord, O my soul. Let Brother Snow, Brother Storrs and others be blessed for their instrumentality in opening my eyes. I am almost home
, Glory! Glory! Glory!!! I see that the time is correct...

As is clearly demonstrated - the Seventh Month & Midnight cry was NOT via Miller, Miller only accepted this new teaching from Storrs and Snow...
...Storrs is credited as being the mentor of the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses ( Charles Tazz Russel ).

Miller continued to believe in the 7th month movement after October 1844 and maintained the chance for salvation for others was past...
...Until Miller rejected the 7th month movement in early 1845 and started to preach against the "shut door" view held by the likes of Joseph Turner.
...Miller, Himes and the other initial Millerite leaders formulated the "Albany Adventist Conference" to combat "the shut door" or 7th month movement.

William Miller, Himes and the remaining original Advent leaders formulated the 1st Adventist conference to combat the abominations which came from the shut door group...
...Such as perfectionism, spirit trips ( Visions ) & forms of foot worship.
...It is at this approximate point Ellen White enters the time hack.

On one hand you have Miller along with the initial Millerite leaders pleading with the "shut door group" that the 7th month movement was false and people can still be saved....
...& on the other hand you have the shut door group claiming those who left the shut door had become babylon & salvation was over for the world.
...Ellen White was 100% on the "SHUT DOOR SIDE" & used her claimed visions to keep people in their error.

Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said, that it was not God that had led them out so far.
The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight
of the mark and of Jesus, and fell of teh path down into the dark wicked world below. It was just AS IMPOSSIBLE
for THEM to get on the path again and go to the city AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED.

Them = the Adventists WHO had given up on the 7th month movement.....
...Once they permanetly gave it up their salvation was just as impossible as those who rejected the 7th month movement.

James White ( Ellen's husband ) provides a summary of Ellen's 1st vision and details WHY God gave it to her.

When she received her first vision Dec 1844, she and all the band in Portland Maine had given up the midnight cry, and shut door as
being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then
related her vision to the band, and about 60 confessed their error and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.

So, shortly after the Great Disapointment Ellen had given up on the 7th month movement and "SHUT DOOR"....
...But on December 1844 Ellen gets a vision from God which re-establishes her belief in the 7th month and shut door!

Least ANY not understand exactly what the "SHUT DOOR" doctrine was understood to be.

we have done OUR work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR;
we can ONLY stir "one another up" to be patient; and be dilligent to make our calling and election sure.

Notice the date - at this point Miller is STILL maintaining the Midnight CRY doctrine Storrs and Snow convinced him of.....
...Approximately 2 weeks PRIOR to 22 October 1844!

From the ASCENSTION, to the SHUTTING OF THE DOOR in October 1844 Jesus stood wth widespread arms of love, and mercy
ready to receive and plead the cause of EVERY sinner, who would come to God by him.

The fall of babylon commenced in the spring of 43 when the churches all around, began to fall into a cold state,
and was complete on the 7th month 44 when their last faint ray of hope was taken up from a wicked world church.

This next quote will leave no doubt as to Ellen using her visions to teach MASSIVE error...
...It is the terminus of any argument that she didn't.

After I had the vision and God gave me light, he bade me to deliver it to the band, but I shrank from it. I was young,
and I thought they would not receive it from me. I disobeyed the Lord and instead of remaining at home, where the meeting
was to be that night. I got in a sleigh in the morning and rode three or 4 miles and there I found Joseph Turner. Here merely inquired how I was
and if I was in the way of my DUTY. I said nothing, for I knew I was not. I passed up chamber and did not see him agan for two hours, when he came up, asked if I was to be at meeting that night.
I told him no, He said he wanted to hear my vision and thought it DUTY for me to go home. I told him I should not. He said no more but went away.
I thought and told those around me if I wnt I would have to come OUT AGAINST his views, THINKING HE BELIEVED WITH THE REST. I had not told any of them what God had shown me,
and I did not tell them in what I should cross his track. Very early the next morning Joseph Turner called, said he was haste going out of the city in a short time,
and wanted that I should tell him all that God had shown me in vision. It was with fear and trembling I told him all. After I had got through he said he had told out the same last evening.
I REJOICED, for I had expected he was coming out against me. for all the while Ihad NOT HEARD ANY ONE SAY WHAT HE BELIEVED.

Ironic, isn't IT! At the point Miller is giving all he has of what little of his earthly life he's got left to pleading with people to drop the "SHUT DOOR"...
...Ellen White's VISION perfectly agrees with the very person Miller and the Albany Adventist Conference is trying to fight.
...Not only that but the Ellen states later in the same letter that the ONES TURNER didn't convince the previous night she was able to.
...Once she told THEM what God "SHEW HER"!

Ellen continued to write "shut door" statements until 1850 -51....
...There are a slew of them I can quote and all mean the same thing.

I posted this because the other thread was not the proper place for it....
...Any are welcome to respond and find any fault they can with what I've posted.
...In fact, I look forward to it.

 

[Soon144k]

Well done, well done. Succinct and to the point. I am going to copy this and use it as a reference, if you don't mind. My follow up question is this:

If EGW was wrong about this (her very first vision) then what else is she wrong about? If she was right about this (the shut door) then why won't the SDA church teach that doctrine today? For a prophet there is no such thing as being partly right and partly wrong. You are either 100% correct, indicating that you are a true prophet of God, or you are 100% wrong indicating that you are a false prophet of Satan. Please read Rev.2:18-23 again in light of this.

 

[Laodicean]

On one hand you have Miller along with the initial Millerite leaders pleading with the "shut door group" that the 7th month movement was false and people can still be saved....
...& on the other hand you have the shut door group claiming those who left the shut door had become babylon & salvation was over for the world.
...Ellen White was 100% on the "SHUT DOOR SIDE" & used her claimed visions to keep people in their error.


Originally Posted by Ellen White, Dec 1844

Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said, that it was not God that had led them out so far.
The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight
of the mark and of Jesus, and fell of teh path down into the dark wicked world below. It was just AS IMPOSSIBLE
for THEM to get on the path again and go to the city AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED.
​

​

If you are going to do honest research, Pythons, you need to include EGW's later clarification that the rejection of the wicked applied only to that current time, similar to various other groups that have been rejected throughout history. You are trying to make a point that she claims that God gave her a vision affirming the shut door theory -- that is, that salvation was forever past for the world -- and thus that she is a false prophet. But she herself has said that God never gave her any such vision affirming the end of salvation. You refuse to accept her word and instead take a few words from a vision and claim that it is what you say it means, in spite of her own explanation of its meaning.

This is shoddy research, to say the least.

Them = the Adventists WHO had given up on the 7th month movement.....
...Once they permanetly gave it up their salvation was just as impossible as those who rejected the 7th month movement.

James White ( Ellen's husband ) provides a summary of Ellen's 1st vision and details WHY God gave it to her.


Originally Posted by James White, Word to the Little Flock, page 22

When she received her first vision Dec 1844, she and all the band in Portland Maine had given up the midnight cry, and shut door as
being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then
related her vision to the band, and about 60 confessed their error and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.
​

​

did you dig deep enough to discover what the "shut door" meant in the visions of 1847, 48, 49? And that the true prophetic "shut door" was misunderstood for a few years until clarified?

If you would take the time to read the entire work of "A Word to the Little Flock," you would see that they already had an awareness, in 1847, of a shut door in the heavenly sanctuary. They just misunderstood it in the early years after 1844, as EGW herself explains.

So when a vision is given saying that the midnight cry and the shut door are still true, God (as the angel later explains to Mrs. White) is speaking of the sanctuary's shut door/open door symbolism. But some of the early Adventists, including EGW, misinterpreted the heavenly sanctuary's shut door to mean the end of salvation to the world. The vision did not affirm the incorrect concept of the shut door.

Keep things in context, please.

So, shortly after the Great Disapointment Ellen had given up on the 7th month movement and "SHUT DOOR"....
...But on December 1844 Ellen gets a vision from God which re-establishes her belief in the 7th month and shut door!

Least ANY not understand exactly what the "SHUT DOOR" doctrine was understood to be.


Originally Posted by William Miller, Nov 18, 1844

we have done OUR work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake a formal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR;
we can ONLY stir "one another up" to be patient; and be dilligent to make our calling and election sure.
​

Notice the date - at this point Miller is STILL maintaining the Midnight CRY doctrine Storrs and Snow convinced him of.....
...Approximately 2 weeks PRIOR to 22 October 1844!


Originally Posted by James White, Word to the Little Flock p.2

From the ASCENSTION, to the SHUTTING OF THE DOOR in October 1844 Jesus stood wth widespread arms of love, and mercy
ready to receive and plead the cause of EVERY sinner, who would come to God by him.
​

​

Note you are once again juxtaposing quotes from different periods which gives an incorrect appearance. A Word to the Little Flock was printed on May 30, 1847. So the understanding of the shut door at this point has been cleared up, as you would have seen in the next paragraph, if you had bothered to read further. Stopping at this point leaves the wrong impression.

The next paragraph continues: "On the 10th day of the 7th month, 1844, he passed into the Holy of Holies, where he has since been a merciful 'high priest over the house of God.' But when his priestly work is finished there, he is to lay off his priestly attire, and put on his most kingly robes, to execute his judgment on the living wicked."

The understanding grew, over time, that the door that was shut was not a door forever shut to the salvation of mankind, but a door shut to the first-apartment phase of the heavenly sanctuary symbolism. But immediately, there is an open door into the holy of holies, where the work of forgiveness and power to overcome sin continues, but this time in the context of the last days of earth's history.

(delete rest that I've answered in the previous thread.)

 

[Laodicean]

Well done, well done. Succinct and to the point. I am going to copy this and use it as a reference, if you don't mind. My follow up question is this:

If EGW was wrong about this (her very first vision) then what else is she wrong about? If she was right about this (the shut door) then why won't the SDA church teach that doctrine today? For a prophet there is no such thing as being partly right and partly wrong. You are either 100% correct, indicating that you are a true prophet of God, or you are 100% wrong indicating that you are a false prophet of Satan. Please read Rev.2:18-23 again in light of this.

Soon, this is a good example of why you have come to reject portions of the Bible. You take the words of fallible man and their incomplete and distorted reasoning, and you run with it, without so much as a "let me check and see if this is really the truth."

As in this instance, you go about proffering various books on fallible human opinions, and you offer them as reasons why we should reject the Pauline writings, and Luke, and even Peter's. As Jesus said, be careful that you are not deceived.

If you run off and put Python's half-finished research on your website or wherever you put your ideas for public consumption, please know that you will be promoting half truths, twisted quotes, and sloppy research, which won't do your reputation any good.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If you are going to do honest research, Pythons, you need to include EGW's later clarification that the rejection of the wicked applied only to that current time, similar to various other groups that have been rejected throughout history. You are trying to make a point that she claims that God gave her a vision affirming the shut door theory -- that is, that salvation was forever past for the world -- and thus that she is a false prophet. But she herself has said that God never gave her any such vision affirming the end of salvation. You refuse to accept her word and instead take a few words from a vision and claim that it is what you say it means, in spite of her own explanation of its meaning.

This is shoddy research, to say the least.

did you dig deep enough to discover what the "shut door" meant in the visions of 1847, 48, 49? And that the true prophetic "shut door" was misunderstood for a few years until clarified?

If you would take the time to read the entire work of "A Word to the Little Flock," you would see that they already had an awareness, in 1847, of a shut door in the heavenly sanctuary. They just misunderstood it in the early years after 1844, as EGW herself explains.

So when a vision is given saying that the midnight cry and the shut door are still true, God (as the angel later explains to Mrs. White) is speaking of the sanctuary's shut door/open door symbolism. But some of the early Adventists, including EGW, misinterpreted the heavenly sanctuary's shut door to mean the end of salvation to the world. The vision did not affirm the incorrect concept of the shut door.

Keep things in context, please.

Note you are once again juxtaposing quotes from different periods which gives an incorrect appearance. A Word to the Little Flock was printed on May 30, 1847. So the understanding of the shut door at this point has been cleared up, as you would have seen in the next paragraph, if you had bothered to read further. Stopping at this point leaves the wrong impression.

The understanding grew, over time, that the door that was shut was not a door forever shut to the salvation of mankind, but a door shut to the first-apartment phase of the heavenly sanctuary symbolism. But immediately, there is an open door into the holy of holies, where the work of forgiveness and power to overcome sin continues, but this time in the context of the last days of earth's history.

(delete rest that I've answered in the previous thread.)

Hi Lao . . . Do you have something specific that you can share with us that will illustrate the reason for your concerns regarding Python's research? Python's examples are quite specific and on point. It may be that you have access to similar examples that support your view. If so, can you share them with us?

BFA

 

[Pythons]

Well done, well done. Succinct and to the point. I am going to copy this and use it as a reference, if you don't mind. My follow up question is this:

If EGW was wrong about this (her very first vision) then what else is she wrong about?

Ellen wasn't wrong about "by faith alone"....
...Ellen was horrificly wrong about the Trinity.

If she was right about this (the shut door) then why won't the SDA church teach that doctrine today? For a prophet there is no such thing as being partly right and partly wrong. You are either 100% correct, indicating that you are a true prophet of God, or you are 100% wrong indicating that you are a false prophet of Satan. Please read Rev.2:18-23 again in light of this.

Yes, I see it the way you have laid it out.....
...The "Shut Door" doctrine didn't evolve into a greater understanding of truth.
...The Shut Door "mutated" from one thing into a totally different thing.
...Once it was understood the teaching was false.

 

[Laodicean]

Hi Lao . . . Do you have something specific that you can share with us that will illustrate the reason for your concerns regarding Python's research? Python's examples are quite specific and on point. It may be that you have access to similar examples that support your view. If so, can you share them with us?

BFA

you'd have to go back and read our rather lengthy exchanges in the Fundamental Believes thread. My examples to him were just as specific and on point, and in addition, they clarified his half quotes, and misquotes. Yet he insists on holding to his erroneous views. There's nothing more I can do.

 

[Laodicean]

Ellen wasn't wrong about "by faith alone"....
...Ellen was horrificly wrong about the Trinity.




Yes, I see it the way you have laid it out.....
...The "Shut Door" doctrine didn't evolve into a greater understanding of truth.
...The Shut Door "mutated" from one thing into a totally different thing.
...Once it was understood the teaching was false.

To borrow from BFA: "I'm done."

 

[Pythons]

If you are going to do honest research, Pythons, you need to include EGW's later clarification that the rejection of the wicked applied only to that current time, similar to various other groups that have been rejected throughout history.

EGW's MUCH later texts on the subject could not be considered 'clarification'....
...Because the mutation of the shut door you speak of is irreconcilable to what Ellen initially supported.
...That is NOT development of doctrine - it's a mutation of doctrine.

You are trying to make a point that she claims that God gave her a vision affirming the shut door theory -- that is, that salvation was forever past for the world -- and thus that she is a false prophet.

Ellen White made the point salvation was forever past, Ad nauseum...
...I simply directed the readers to her explicit statements & visions.

But she herself has said that God never gave her any such vision affirming the end of salvation.

Yes, you have zero argument from me that she indeed did "say that"...
...& I think I have proven beyond any doubt she received specific visions affirming she did.

You refuse to accept her word and instead take a few words from a vision and claim that it is what you say it means, in spite of her own explanation of its meaning.

The words themselves prove the meaning - the time hack proves the meaning....
...And the reaction of the most violent "Shut Door" advocate to Ellen's Vision proves the meaning.

This is shoddy research, to say the least.

I can understand why you attempt to push my findings into that area....
...Unfortunately, for your assertion, there is much more to come.

did you dig deep enough to discover what the "shut door" meant in the visions of 1847, 48, 49? And that the true prophetic "shut door" was misunderstood for a few years until clarified?

William Miller's "Midnight Cry" ONLY was the name of his paper & "Shut Door"...
...ONLY indicated ( as you pointed out in the other thread ) that once Jesus came back.
...The possibility for Salvation had indeed passed.

Ellen White was an adherant of the "Seventh Month Movement & Midnight Cry"....
...& that doctrine taught that subsequent to 22 October 1844 NO ONE aside from 7th mo folks.
...WOULD be saved.

If you would take the time to read the entire work of "A Word to the Little Flock," you would see that they already had an awareness, in 1847, of a shut door in the heavenly sanctuary. They just misunderstood it in the early years after 1844, as EGW herself explains.

I have read the whole thing & the understanding from Turner, Ellen & James White....
...Was that the door of salvation WAS shut on 22 October 1844.
...Even though Christ didn't return to the earth.

So when a vision is given saying that the midnight cry and the shut door are still true, God (as the angel later explains to Mrs. White) is speaking of the sanctuary's shut door/open door symbolism. But some of the early Adventists, including EGW, misinterpreted the heavenly sanctuary's shut door to mean the end of salvation to the world. The vision did not affirm the incorrect concept of the shut door.

When it's demonstrated that Ellen 1st believed in the 'Shut Door" then 'gave it up as error'.....
...Until her 1st vision re-established her belief in what she initially held.
...Then I can assure you her 1st vision affirmed the ONLY thing the doctrine EVER meant.

Keep things in context, please.

What does that mean?

Note you are once again juxtaposing quotes from different periods which gives an incorrect appearance. A Word to the Little Flock was printed on May 30, 1847. So the understanding of the shut door at this point has been cleared up, as you would have seen in the next paragraph, if you had bothered to read further. Stopping at this point leaves the wrong impression.

The understanding had NOT changed by 1847....
...Ellen continued to blast out shut door statements through 1850 -51.
...Exactly as I stated in the other thread.

I will now write you the vision God gave me on the sabbath, the 24th of march. We had a glorious meeting. I was taken off in vision. I saw the commandments of God and the shut door could not be separated. I saw that as God worked for his people Satan would also work. My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of the souls for sinners as USED TO BE. I looked but could not see it for the TIME FOR THEIR SALVATION is PAST. Dear brother and sister, I have now written the vision God gave me. I am tired sitting so long. Our position looks very clear. WE KNOW WE HAVE THE TRUTH, THE MIDNIGHT CRY IS BEHIND US, THE DOOR WAS SHUT IN 1844 and Jesus is soon to step out from between God and man.

That's 1848 and we can keep going from there to 1850 -51....
...And all of them ( visions ) earning the glowing pride of "Joseph Turner".
...Who later promoted himself to Prophet as well as "King Jesus' Viceroy" & "incarnation of Elijah".
...Not a guy I would want spending any time with my daughter.

The next paragraph continues: "On the 10th day of the 7th month, 1844, he passed into the Holy of Holies, where he has since been a merciful 'high priest over the house of God.' But when his priestly work is finished there, he is to lay off his priestly attire, and put on his most kingly robes, to execute his judgment on the living wicked."

Yes, Ellen & ALL the rest of the "shut door Adventists".....
...Believed Jesus was just wrapping stuff up then would come.
...Salvation was STILL taught to be over for all who rejected the 7th mo movement.
...And that's what I've been saying.

The understanding grew, over time, that the door that was shut was not a door forever shut to the salvation of mankind, but a door shut to the first-apartment phase of the heavenly sanctuary symbolism. But immediately, there is an open door into the holy of holies, where the work of forgiveness and power to overcome sin continues, but this time in the context of the last days of earth's history.

(delete rest that I've answered in the previous thread.)

What you are suggesting is a mutation of a doctrine....
...Not development of doctrine.
...Which is what you need to show to salvage Ellen on this issue.

 

[Pythons]

you'd have to go back and read our rather lengthy exchanges in the Fundamental Believes thread. My examples to him were just as specific and on point, and in addition, they clarified his half quotes, and misquotes. Yet he insists on holding to his erroneous views. There's nothing more I can do.

And your premise in that thread was that the "shut door".....
...Was a concept came up with subsequent to 22 October 1844.
...Even though it was demonstrated the doctrine incepted 3 months prior to D day.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

you'd have to go back and read our rather lengthy exchanges in the Fundamental Believes thread. My examples to him were just as specific and on point, and in addition, they clarified his half quotes, and misquotes. Yet he insists on holding to his erroneous views. There's nothing more I can do.

OK. I'll go check it out. I must have glossed over that section. Thanks for the heads up.

BFA

 

[Soon144k]

Python,
There are some that no matter what evidence is given they will not accept it just because the don't want too. They are deluded with self-interest, and so tied to their own theology that they WILL NOT seek truth outside of their own paradigms. They are intellectually and spiritually dishonest, which prevents them from finding truth.

EGW had to back track from her original stance on the 'shut door principle' because if she did not she would have lost all credibility and power inside the Advent movement. The founders of the Adventist church (excluding Wm Miller, who did not live long enough to be fully involved in it) recognized the difficulty with Ellen's vision from the get-go, so I wonder why they did not have the courage to shut her down right then and there and continue with the research and study that brought them out of their home churches to wait for what they thought would be the coming of the Bridegroom in 1844. I wonder what the SDA church would look like today had Satan not insinuated EGW into the church as a deadly virus, by which today most of the church is sound asleep and NOT prepared for the coming of Jesus as a thief in the night.

 

[Pythons]

Python,
There are some that no matter what evidence is given they will not accept it just because the don't want too. They are deluded with self-interest, and so tied to their own theology that they WILL NOT seek truth outside of their own paradigms. They are intellectually and spiritually dishonest, which prevents them from finding truth.

EGW had to back track from her original stance on the 'shut door principle' because if she did not she would have lost all credibility and power inside the Advent movement. The founders of the Adventist church (excluding Wm Miller, who did not live long enough to be fully involved in it) recognized the difficulty with Ellen's vision from the get-go, so I wonder why they did not have the courage to shut her down right then and there and continue with the research and study that brought them out of their home churches to wait for what they thought would be the coming of the Bridegroom in 1844. I wonder what the SDA church would look like today had Satan not insinuated EGW into the church as a deadly virus, by which today most of the church is sound asleep and NOT prepared for the coming of Jesus as a thief in the night.

Yes, it reminds me of the Scripture that speaks of people ( in the end times ) that would rather have their ears tickled then hearing the truth.

I know Laodicea states that I've ignored his counter points to what I've posted....
...However the premise for his counter points is that the Shut Door was an error that was born in the aftermath of the Great Disapointment.
...And I've more then proved that's not the case.
...The fact is that the shut door was in force 3 months prior to D-day and was the 7th month movement.

EDIT:

I had mentioned that George Storrs is credited with the building up of the Jehovah's Witnesses and forgot to mention Sam Snow...
...Samuel Snow was also a funny guy, who, aside from helping the proto JW craft the 7th month movement - was known for his title.

Samuel Snow's title: "SAMUEL SHEFFIELD SNOW, PREMEIR OF KING JESUS, INCARNATION OF ELIJIAH"

 

[Pythons]

Python,
There are some that no matter what evidence is given they will not accept it just because the don't want too. They are deluded with self-interest, and so tied to their own theology that they WILL NOT seek truth outside of their own paradigms. They are intellectually and spiritually dishonest, which prevents them from finding truth.

EGW had to back track from her original stance on the 'shut door principle' because if she did not she would have lost all credibility and power inside the Advent movement. The founders of the Adventist church (excluding Wm Miller, who did not live long enough to be fully involved in it) recognized the difficulty with Ellen's vision from the get-go, so I wonder why they did not have the courage to shut her down right then and there and continue with the research and study that brought them out of their home churches to wait for what they thought would be the coming of the Bridegroom in 1844. I wonder what the SDA church would look like today had Satan not insinuated EGW into the church as a deadly virus, by which today most of the church is sound asleep and NOT prepared for the coming of Jesus as a thief in the night.

I would have guessed you would have attempted to defend the 7th month movement....
...Given that your Faith Icon is SDA.
...Does SDAism allow it's members to reject certain teachings of the church?

I don't know so that's why I ask about it...
...The Anglican system allows about any belief so it's not that odd within Prot sects.

 

[Soon144k]

I would have guessed you would have attempted to defend the 7th month movement....
...Given that your Faith Icon is SDA.
...Does SDAism allow it's members to reject certain teachings of the church?

I don't know so that's why I ask about it...
...The Anglican system allows about any belief so it's not that odd within Prot sects.

At this point in my experience I no longer call myself a Christian, I am a Follower of Jesus Christ. And even more than that I am a Bondservant of Jesus. I am an SDA, but I am not one that checks his brains and intellect at the door of the church and at the door of faith. There are many issues in my church that I disagree with, but that does not mean that I am willing to give up working on the inside to change things toward the truth. I will be an SDA until they physically throw me out of the church (ref. the shaking in Matt.25:1-13).

 

[Pythons]

At this point in my experience I no longer call myself a Christian, I am a Follower of Jesus Christ. And even more than that I am a Bondservant of Jesus. I am an SDA, but I am not one that checks his brains and intellect at the door of the church and at the door of faith. There are many issues in my church that I disagree with, but that does not mean that I am willing to give up working on the inside to change things toward the truth. I will be an SDA until they physically throw me out of the church (ref. the shaking in Matt.25:1-13).

That was a clear and understandable answer Soon.....
...Thanks for being so direct and honest.
...You are a rare breed & I mean that as a compliment.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Lao . . . Thanks for pointing me to your other posts on this subject. I've read through them. I am particularly intrigued by the quote from Mrs. White that you provided. I have a few questions about it.

"I am still a believer in the shut door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

OK. So it appears to me that -- despite any retraction that she may have written -- Mrs. White continued to hold to some version of the shut door and attached her revised perspective to the events in 1844. She seems to confirm that later in this quote.

"There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the flood. God, Himself, gave the shut door message to Noah.

Would you agree that she seems to be framing her comments in the context of a withdrawal of the Spirit? Since the Spirit guarantees what is to come, would you also agree that such a withdrawal has a direct bearing on a person's eternal security?

"There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

In this "shut door example," it seems that death resulted. One might even speculate that Lot's eternal security was lost because of this shut door example.

"I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844.

Would we agree that Mrs. White is now applying her earlier shut door examples to the events in 1844?

All who saw the light of the first and second angel's messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness.

If a person were left in darkness, would s/he have access to salvation?

And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion,thereby rejected the Sirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

If men are sealed with the Spirit, what hope do men have if the Spirit no longer pleads with them?

"Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith.

If a person renounces their faith, do they have access to salvation?

These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ, but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision, -- those who declared the light which they had followed, a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection.

Is Mrs. White correct? Is it true that a man's salvation hinges on his correct understanding of the first and second angel's messages? Is our salvation based on our ability to get the right answers on a theology exam? If a man does not see "the truth" in "the first and second angel's message," does the Holy Spirit reject that man or does the Holy Spirit convict that man? What is Mrs. White really revealing regarding her stance on salvation? It certainly doesn't appear that she is supporting God's sovereignty or the concept of salvation as a free gift.

The quote that you've provided only offers us some serious questions to ponder. It certainly doesn't provide me any comfort regarding Mrs. White's perspective on the shut door.

BFA

 

[Pythons]

Astute points BFA1 & exactly the same thing I concluded with my study into this subject...
...Ellen White's visions and views of the original "shut door" are irreconcilable.
...With her later mutation of the initial doctrine.

Example of doctrinal mutation:

Jesus is NOT God in human flesh....
MUTATED into.
...Jesus IS God in human flesh.

The above is NOT development of doctrine....
...It is mutation of doctrine.
...Because a thing ceases being that thing and becomes something else.
...Which is exactly what happend with the 7th month movement ( Shut Door ).

Or more simply stated - Ellen claimed prophetic vision(s).....
...In her efforts to AFFIRM false doctrine.
...Which was later mutated into a doctrine which had no dna to the initial.

 

[Soon144k]

Astute points BFA1 & exactly the same thing I concluded with my study into this subject...
...Ellen White's visions and views of the original "shut door" are irreconcilable.
...With her later mutation of the initial doctrine.

Example of doctrinal mutation:

Jesus is NOT God in human flesh....
MUTATED into.
...Jesus IS God in human flesh.

The above is NOT development of doctrine....
...It is mutation of doctrine.
...Because a thing ceases being that thing and becomes something else.
...Which is exactly what happend with the 7th month movement ( Shut Door ).

Or more simply stated - Ellen claimed prophetic vision(s).....
...In her efforts to AFFIRM false doctrine.
...Which was later mutated into a doctrine which had no dna to the initial.

I very much agree with this. Therefore, a follow on question:

If EGW is wrong about this, what else is she wrong about? Is there evidence that EGW is a false prophet in Bible prophecy?

 

[Pythons]

I very much agree with this. Therefore, a follow on question:

If EGW is wrong about this, what else is she wrong about? Is there evidence that EGW is a false prophet in Bible prophecy?

IMHO she was a false prophet out - of - the - gate simply for violating...
...Sacred Tradition & Sacred Scripture whereas the role of a prophet is concerned.

In both Sacred Tradition & Scripture the role of a Prophet is to rebuke people for departing from established doctrines...
...The "Prophet" NEVER established doctrines.
...They were used to call people back to the doctrines previously established.
...By God's appointed religious Authority.

Ellen White Enabled to Clearly Define Truth and Error.--At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines. We would search the Scriptures with much prayer, and the Holy Spirit would bring the truth to our minds. Sometimes whole nights would be devoted to searching the Scriptures and earnestly asking God for guidance. Companies of devoted
men and women assembled for this purpose. The power of God would come upon ME, and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error. {3SM 31.4}

The above is a violation of Sacred Scripture....
...As the following demonstrates.

Acts 2:42 "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

Act 8:18 "And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money."

Acts 15:2 "When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."

Acts 15:6 "And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter."

1 Cor 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

2 Peter 3:2 "That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of US the apostles of the Lord and Saviour."

In the case of Acts Chapter 15 some zealots of Judaism who were also Christian....
...Stated the true doctrine required Gentile Christians observe the Law of Moses TO BE SAVED...
...So the question was taken to Jerusalem, to the Apostolic Authority.
...Which held a Council.

There is no teaching of the Apostles being stumped by the question....
...And a prophet attending the council clenching their fists, rolling their eyes back and falling down.
...To be taken off in vision & claiming God "shew" them what is error & truth.
...This is an alien teaching to be sure.

Ellen White ursurped the structure of Religious Authority as found in Sacred Scripture & Tradition...
...And explicitly states that it was via HER that truth and error was determined.

Ellen's texts goes on to state this method was how the SDA faith was "established".

As the points of our faith were thus established, our feet were placed upon a solid foundation. We accepted the truth point by point, under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I would be taken off in vision, and explanations would be given ME. I was given illustrations of heavenly things, and of the sanctuary, so that we were placed where light was shining on us in clear, distinct rays.--Gospel Works, p. 302. {3SM 32.1}

Ellen states that "SHE" was given explanations by God so "Advent band"...
...Could get true light on whatever doctrine was being vetted.

As a Catholic this is easy to see through and can be classified.....
...As Ellen White simply coveted the infallibility of Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox Councils depending on the view.

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen

This is one reason out of many why I have a hard time accepting...
...That Ellen manifested the Holy Spirit.
...But that's just me.