Futurist Only Sukkot, Purim, and the structure of Revelation

[tranquil]

[Note, this thread is not a prediction, it is a hypothesis. OK? Great. Also, this is not about predicting a 'whisked away' rapture, which, imo, is not indicated in the Bible and verges on heresy.]

Does the Bible give clues as to the timing of the events of Revelation? Once we look at the timing of the 6th Seal, then hopefully the timing of all the rest of Revelation will fall into place and we can apply this to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and even Daniel 9’s 70 weeks prophecy (in a very surprising way, I promise). It is very simple and straightforward, but it is not the usual approach to things.

To start, the 6th & 7th Seals appear to refer to Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). See for yourself.

Revelation 7

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”​

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.​

Leviticus 23:39-43

39 “‘So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the Lord for seven days; the first day is a day of sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of sabbath rest. 40 On the first day you are to take branches from luxuriant trees—from palms, willows and other leafy trees—and rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the Lord for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in temporary shelters for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in such shelters 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in temporary shelters when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’”​

In Revelation, the faithful celebrate with palm leaves, are brought out of the great tribulation, and given shelter. These aspects are mirrored in the creation of the Feast of Tabernacles/ Sukkot on the 15th of Tishri: the Israelites celebrate with palm leaves, are brought out of slavery to Egypt, and acknowledge God had given them shelter. It really isn’t a controversial opinion, I have seen a few observers make this point.

Aside from Revelation 8:1 ‘When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour’, the next amount of time mentioned is 5 months. Why 5 months?

Revelation 9:10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails.

If the beginning of the Trumpets is indeed Feast of Tabernacles/ Sukkot on the 15th of Tishri, when the faithful are starting to become ‘sheltered’ from the ‘great tribulation’, then 5 months later takes us to 15 Adar, which is Shushan Purim. (Purim is normally celebrated on 14 Adar, unless there is an Adar II extra month and then it is celebrated on 14 Adar II. Shushan Purim is celebrated on 15 Adar in ‘walled cities’, and thus in Jerusalem [Ester 9:18-19]). Purim celebrates the defeat of the Jews Persian enemies, of which the Persians are part of the coalition of Gog in Ezekiel 38-39. More on this in a bit.

So, if the Trumpets are ushering in the start of the ‘great tribulation’ (Rev 7:14 above) on Sukkot/ 15 Tishri when the faithful are sheltered, why does Jesus mention the ‘winter, Sabbath’ in relation to it in Matthew 24?

15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.​

Why would the abomination of desolation occur on Sukkot? Because it is the one holiday when Gentiles are commanded to worship God in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-21). Reading through the passage above, there is the implication that the abomination occurs, and then the ‘winter, sabbath and great tribulation’ occurs. Sukkot is never in the winter, so what is the next event to occur? 5 months later on 15 Adar would be this winter event (the month of Adar is in February or March), and would be the start of the 6th Trumpet. Does 15 Adar occur on the Sabbath? Yes, on occasion. In the next 10 years, it will occur twice: on Saturday, February 24, 2024, and then again on Saturday, March 15, 2025.

Thus, we would get 15 Tishri, 5784, on the Hebrew calendar (September 30, 2023) for Sukkot, the potential start of the Trumpets and Day of the Lord, then 5 months later is the ‘winter, Sabbath’ on Saturday, 15 Adar, 5784 (February 24, 2024). Alternately, we could get 15 Tishri, 5785 for Sukkot (October 17, 2024), the potential start of the Trumpets and Day of the Lord, then 5 months later is the ‘winter, Sabbath’ on Saturday, 15 Adar, 5785 (March 15, 2025). One of these sets is a very good fit and one isn’t, as we will see shortly.

 

[tranquil]

Let’s go back to the 6th Seal, where the Day of the Lord’s wrath was announced. A ‘day’ in scripture can also mean 1 year (Ezek 4:6). So, if there are 5 months of the abomination army (Luke 21:20), that leaves 7 months to round out the ‘Day of the Lord’s wrath’ (5 months + 7 months = 12 months). And there is a particular 7 months mentioned in the Bible: at the burial of Gog in Ezekiel 39

11“ ‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12“ ‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.​

Let’s also remember the 2 sticks prophecy from Ezekiel 37

26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ”​

Ezekiel is mentioning the Gog war, a covenant of peace, and a sanctuary (the Ezekiel millennium temple). Immediately after the description of the Gog war in Ezekiel 38 -39, Ezekiel goes into describing the new temple that will be built in the millennium in chapters 40-48. What event marks the end of the 7 months of ‘cleansing the land’? What if it marks the anointing of a new ‘most holy’ [place]? (Daniel 9:24).

Look at it from the Jewish perspective: (what-appears-to-be) Gog has attacked for the start of the Day of the Lord’s wrath (start of the Trumpets) on Sukkot, the 15th of Tishri. It lasts for 5 months and then Gog is destroyed on 15 Adar, Shushan Purim is celebrated in Jerusalem, the defeat of their Persian enemies (of which they are part of the Gog coalition in Ezekiel 38:3-5). 7 months later puts us at the anniversary of the attack on 15 Tishri to anoint a most holy [place].

If this is the case, how does this relate to the Daniel 9 70 weeks prophecy which relates to the anointing of a holy place? Just literally subtract 70 weeks from the end of the Day of the Lord’s wrath ‘year’ (on the anniversary Sukkot).

To be clear, this only applies to one particular set of Sukkot and ‘winter, Sabbath’ of 15 Adar, Shushan Purim: October 17, 2024, Sukkot (15 Tishri) and March 15, 2025, 15 Adar, Shushan Purim on the winter, Sabbath (quick note here: because Shushan Purim occurs on the sabbath here, it is moved to 16 Adar in this instance). Add 7 months to ‘cleanse the land’ to get to Tuesday, October 7, 2025 (the next 15 Tishri, Sukkot). Subtract 70 weeks from dusk October 7, 2025, to get to dusk June 4, 2024, which is the start of 28 Iyyar, 5784. This is the Israeli holiday called ‘Jerusalem Day’ which celebrates the reunification of Jerusalem via the 6 Day War in June 1967 – a ‘call to restore Jerusalem’.

Here is Daniel 9’s 70 weeks prophecy:

24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”​

‘Jerusalem Day’ is the celebration of the restoration of Jerusalem. Adding 70 weeks puts us at Tishri 15 on the exact last day of the 70 weeks. Dusk June 4, 2024 plus 70 weeks gives us dusk October 7, 2025 (15 Tishri being dusk October 6th/ day of October 7th). This pattern does not occur with the other set: Sukkot in 2023 & Purim in 2024.

 

[tranquil]

Here is where the deception lies: an alternate translation of Daniel 9:27 (the more common one it seems) is

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”​

15 Tishri is the ‘middle of the 7’ – it is the middle of the 30 days of the 7th month. The Bible doesn’t give a name to Tishri in Leviticus, it is just called the ‘7th month.

Imagine you are a Jew looking for a messiah: the messiah would defeat Gog, make a covenant, and establish the sanctuary (per Ezekiel 36-48). From the Christian perspective, the messiah that beats Gog would be the ‘antichrist’ who makes the peace covenant, after Gog is defeated at the end of the ‘flood’ (Gen 7:24 Noah’s flood was 150 days/ 5 months just like the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet).

To the Christian, the ‘breaking of the covenant’ is normally understood to occur after 3.5 years (or potentially, at the very start of the 7 year covenant, depending on the translation used). But to the Jew, the literal 70 weeks prophecy could be read as the messiah (arriving 7 weeks after dusk June 4, 2024: July 23, 2024) waging war against the evil Gog who enforced idol worship in the middle of the 7th month ushering the almost end of the world (the Christian 6th Seal & start of the Trumpets) who then was defeated 5 months later with ‘fire coming down from heaven’ in the manner that Gog would be defeated at 15 Adar (to celebrate the victory over the Persians at Shushan Purim which was moved to 16 Adar due to the sabbath timing of 15 Adar).

Loosely, the structure seems to be:

• Jerusalem Day is celebrated on June 4, 2024, maybe in a very notable way. (Why this particular day, I am unsure. This is the 57th anniversary of the original Jerusalem Day of June 7, 1967. Because the Jewish calendar is luni-solar, it uses the 19 year Metonic cycle, thus replicating the original moon phases of the original 1967 Jerusalem Day as 57 years are divisible by the 19 years.)
• An anointed one arrives 7 weeks later on July 23, 2024.
• Gog breaks the covenant ‘in the middle of the 7th month’ (which would be the 6th Seal & beginning of Trumpets at Sukkot, 15 Tishri) on October 17, 2024.
• Gog defeated 5 months later at the ‘winter, sabbath great tribulation’ on 15 Adar (March 15, 2025), but is resurrected (6th Trumpet).
• The ‘antichrist’ & False Prophet confirms the covenant (at the 6th Trumpet, March 15, 2025) (presumably with Gog to form the ‘covenant with Death & Hades’) and breaks it at the 7th Trumpet (1260 days after March 15, 2025 is August 26, 2028 (this is 75 days after June 12, 2028 which is 2300 days after Feb 24, 2022, the start of the Ram’s attack in Daniel 8, the start of Russia’s attack on Ukraine).
• The 2 witnesses are witnessing for 1260 days against the resurrected Gog on the one side & on the other side is the ‘antichrist’ who is going to ‘break the covenant’ in the future at the end of the 1260 days (triggering the 7th Trumpet & 7 bowls of wrath).

 

[Timtofly]

Does the Bible give clues as to the timing of the events of Revelation? Once we look at the timing of the 6th Seal, then hopefully the timing of all the rest of Revelation will fall into place and we can apply this to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and even Daniel 9’s 70 weeks prophecy (in a very surprising way, I promise). It is very simple and straightforward, but it is not the usual approach to things.

To start, the 6th & 7th Seals appear to refer to Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). See for yourself.

Revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

No.

No one can know the timing of the Second Coming. Those alive at the blooming of the fig tree will start dying out, and most probably dead by the time the Second Coming happens. The point is that not all will die, but remain alive until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Of course those still alive will die, because no one can enter the Millennium alive in Adam's flesh and blood, despite many teaching just the opposite.

Also those in Revelation 7, the multitude that cannot be numbered did not come out of the GT. That is like saying no one was ever redeemed, but those in the GT. The Greek says "the tribulation (the) great". It does not say "the great (the) tribulation". The noun is tribulation, and that tribulation is great, but not the other way around where the emphasis is on great, and not just tribulation. Some English translation forgo the word "the" and use great as the adjective which is just normal description of this tribulation. In Matthew 24:21 Jesus was putting the emphasis on great, and the Greek does not even use the definite article "the". Jesus was not even pointing out a period of time, but that there would just be great tribulation never seen before. We then equate this with the prophecied time called Jacob's trouble.

So those coming out of the tribulation in Revelation 7 is the whole church from all time. Revelation 7 should not be interpreted as only those coming out of a few years of trouble at the very end, especially not the trouble Jesus is referring to in the OD. John is literally in Paradise after the Second Coming and literally viewing the church of all time since Abel until the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. So that great tribulation is just living on earth under the bondage of sin during the 6,000 years of Adam's punishment.

No one should say, these people just died after a tribulation Jesus taught in the OD. That would be splitting the church into two different groups. The time of Jacob's trouble does not apply to the church. It applies to Israel. So Israel who are not part of the church is still on earth, and not even in this multitude. They are about to go through Jacob's trouble on earth during the Trumpets. That is why chapter 7 starts out with 144k sealed who are exempt from Jacob's trouble but are the firstfruits of the sheep who are saved out of Jacob's trouble, while the goats are forever placed in Death.

So Revelation 7 cannot point to the Second Coming timing. It is only a point in time between the 6th and 7th Seal. John sees the whole church in Paradise, so none of the church is on earth after the 6th Seal is opened. That being caught up happened at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. So saying 'anyone being whisked away is a fantasy' is a moot argument. No one is whisked away. The church is gathered and glorified during the 5th and 6th Seals being opened. They are the same event. If one is not glorified prior to the 7th Seal, they will not be glorified and part of the church in Paradise. The sheep and wheat of the Second Coming harvest will rule and reign on earth with Christ for 1,000 years. The church will remain glorified and in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 years.

The feast are for Israel not the church, but perhaps they will apply on earth after the Second Coming.

 

[tranquil]

No.

No one can know the timing of the Second Coming. Those alive at the blooming of the fig tree will start dying out, and most probably dead by the time the Second Coming happens. The point is that not all will die, but remain alive until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Of course those still alive will die, because no one can enter the Millennium alive in Adam's flesh and blood, despite many teaching just the opposite.

Also those in Revelation 7, the multitude that cannot be numbered did not come out of the GT. That is like saying no one was ever redeemed, but those in the GT. The Greek says "the tribulation (the) great". It does not say "the great (the) tribulation". The noun is tribulation,
that tribulation is great, but not the other way around where the emphasis is on great, and not just tribulation. Some English translation forgo the word "the" and use great as the adjective which is just normal description of this tribulation. In Matthew 24:21 Jesus was putting the emphasis on great, and the Greek does not even use the definite article "the". Jesus was not even pointing out a period of time, but that there would just be great tribulation never seen before. We then equate this with the prophecied time called Jacob's trouble.

So those coming out of the tribulation in Revelation 7 is the whole church from all time. Revelation 7 should not be interpreted as only those coming out of a few years of trouble at the very end, especially not the trouble Jesus is referring to in the OD. John is literally in Paradise after the Second Coming and literally viewing the church of all time since Abel until the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. So that great tribulation is just living on earth under the bondage of sin during the 6,000 years of Adam's punishment.

No one should say, these people just died after a tribulation Jesus taught in the OD. That would be splitting the church into two different groups. The time of Jacob's trouble does not apply to the church. It applies to Israel. So Israel who are not part of the church is still on earth, and not even in this multitude. They are about to go through Jacob's trouble on earth during the Trumpets. That is why chapter 7 starts out with 144k sealed who are exempt from Jacob's trouble but are the firstfruits of the sheep who are saved out of Jacob's trouble, while the goats are forever placed in Death.

So Revelation 7 cannot point to the Second Coming timing. It is only a point in time between the 6th and 7th Seal. John sees the whole church in Paradise, so none of the church is on earth after the 6th Seal is opened. That being caught up happened at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. So saying 'anyone being whisked away is a fantasy' is a moot argument. No one is whisked away. The church is gathered and glorified during the 5th and 6th Seals being opened. They are the same event. If one is not glorified prior to the 7th Seal, they will not be glorified and part of the church in Paradise. The sheep and wheat of the Second Coming harvest will rule and reign on earth with Christ for 1,000 years. The church will remain glorified and in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 years.

The feast are for Israel not the church, but perhaps they will apply on earth after the Second Coming.

No one can know the timing of the Second Coming.

I didn't think I was putting a date on that, only when judgment occurs.

The point is that not all will die, but remain alive until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Of course those still alive will die, because no one can enter the Millennium alive in Adam's flesh and blood, despite many teaching just the opposite.

The start of the Trumpets isn't the 2nd coming necessarily- just judgment because people have started worshiping the abomination. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd woe, that comes after the 1st, then 2nd woe. They aren't all instantaneous. As to 'dying' before the 7th Trumpet, that is what being 'born again' is referring to.

Also those in Revelation 7, the multitude that cannot be numbered did not come out of the GT. That is like saying no one was ever redeemed, but those in the GT. The Greek says "the tribulation (the) great". It does not say "the great (the) tribulation". The noun is tribulation,
that tribulation is great, but not the other way around where the emphasis is on great, and not just tribulation. Some English translation forgo the word "the" and use great as the adjective which is just normal description of this tribulation. In Matthew 24:21 Jesus was putting the emphasis on great, and the Greek does not even use the definite article "the". Jesus was not even pointing out a period of time, but that there would just be great tribulation never seen before. We then equate this with the prophecied time called Jacob's trouble.

Not sure what you are arguing here. The 'great tribulation' is a specific event. Greek grammar is different than English and Hebrew. Whether it is 'the great tribulation', the 'great tribulation', 'tribulation the great', it all means the same thing.

The church is gathered and glorified during the 5th and 6th Seals being opened.

Why would you argue this? It says right in the 7th Seal that this is the gathering event.

If one is not glorified prior to the 7th Seal, they will not be glorified and part of the church in Paradise. The sheep and wheat of the Second Coming harvest will rule and reign on earth with Christ for 1,000 years. The church will remain glorified and in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 years.

My argument here is that there are 2 'tests' for the church to collectively 'pass'. These 'tests' (will people worship the idol) occur at the beginning of the Trumpets & at the 7th Trumpet:

at the 1st abomination = start of the Trumpets. Gog is surrounding Jerusalem.

5 months later at the 'winter sabbath, start of the great tribulation', starts the 6th Trumpet. The 'false christ' who defeats Gog makes a covenant.

The false christ breaks the covenant at the 7th Trumpet.

These kings correlate to Revelation 17:9-13. The 'one that is' (#6 king is Gog.) The 'one to come' is the 'antichrist' (#7 king). The #8 king is either the resurrected #6 king or the resurrected #7 king or the False Prophet.

This is why the 3 woes are not instantaneous, as the false christ has to defeat Gog at Shushan Purim.