Suggestions requested

[Elderone]

Does anyone know of good leadership training material for ruling Elders and where it may be obtained?

Thanks..................

 

[JimfromOhio]

Right now, I am going to wait for my local Church (PCA) to offer eldership classes. They offer this at least once a year. Often they will use the following reading materials to study:
Westminster Confession of Faith
PCA Book of Church Order
Manual of Officer Training (Hall/Buckner)
Challenge of the Eldership (MacNair)
Elders of the Church (Eyres)
With a Shepherd's Heart (Sittema).

The elders often said to go ahead and study them now so when I am ready for eldership (if I choose to), the training process will be easier.

More information regarding PCA's Eldership requirements.

From ByFaith Magazing Online Strong Leadership is Trained Leadership

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Does anyone know of good leadership training material for ruling Elders and where it may be obtained?

Thanks..................

This isn't a training suggestion, however, I have recently read a book that I think would benefit anyone (esp. in a leadership position). It is called "Humility" by CJ Mahaney. It is around 100 pages and an easy read.

CC&E

 

[bradfordl]

The Bible. My opinion is that if men would honestly examine themselves as to whether they meet the scriptural qualifications of the office of elder, and exclude themselves when they ought, we would have much sounder Sessions. More than one wife (divorced)? Unbelieving or unruly children? Rebellious or contentious wife? Criminal record? Financially irresponsible? Bad reputation? Don't stand. Some of those things can be changed - finances, reputation, behavior or faith of family members; but one should not stand until they do change, and for a long period. Others can't be changed - divorce, criminal record; and one should have the humility to accept that God has ordained that you not serve as an officer in His Church. No problem, there are plenty of other avenues of service available.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Does anyone know of good leadership training material for ruling Elders and where it may be obtained?

Thanks..................

check out: www.prpbooks.com

Look under "E" I found two. We used to have "Elders of the Church" but I loaned it to someone.

CC&E

 

[JimfromOhio]

The Bible. My opinion is that if men would honestly examine themselves as to whether they meet the scriptural qualifications of the office of elder, and exclude themselves when they ought, we would have much sounder Sessions. More than one wife (divorced)? Unbelieving or unruly children? Rebellious or contentious wife? Criminal record? Financially irresponsible? Bad reputation? Don't stand. Some of those things can be changed - finances, reputation, behavior or faith of family members; but one should not stand until they do change, and for a long period. Others can't be changed - divorce, criminal record; and one should have the humility to accept that God has ordained that you not serve as an officer in His Church. No problem, there are plenty of other avenues of service available.

Its interesting. On the topic of "eldership". Can God use me despite my sinful past? I have found that God uses unqualified people to accomplish God’s spiritual purposes. Here are the following God’s CHOSEN/CALLED unqualified people to serve Him.
1. Lot got drunk and committed incest.
2. Abraham doubted God and committed adultery.
3. Jacob deceived his father.
4. Moses murdered.
5. David murdered and committed adultery.
6. Jonah got angry with God (in a sinful way)
7. Paul (Saul) murdered Christians
8. All 12 of Jesus disciples were not qualified to be the Apostles however Jesus called them.

God will use ordinary good people as well as ordinary very sinful people to accomplish great things. Through out the history (in the past 2,000 years), God uses people of limitless backgrounds who can minister “together” (unity) for Christ. God works all things together for His purposes.

For 3 years, Jesus taught His Disciples who became Apostles after His death. What kind of education did Jesus gave them? Reading all of the New Testament, I have come to conclusion that Jesus taught them Spiritual matters.

Teachers are to have good reputation. In the book of Titus, the requirements are: Show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose they may be ashamed because those have nothing bad to say about them. That teachers are to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. In 2 Corinthians 7:2 says that we "make room for others in our hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one." This is where "accountability" comes in. In 1 Timothy 3:1-3: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

In terms of "divorce", there is nothing in that scriptures that says "divorce" but rather "husband of one wife.".

What is the basic meaning of "husband of one wife." ? Can a man who lost a wife through death be qualified as an elder as "husband of one wife"?

Literally the Greek words are simply "one woman man" or "one wife man". One commentator translates as "one wife's husband." Whether this means one at a time or one during a lifetime depends completely on other considerations. Even the question on the meaning of "one at a time" depends on one's view of divorce as to whether a divorced man who has remarried is considered to be "one wife's husband."

There are mis-interpretations regarding this issue. Its really interesting (for me) to see how Reformed believers are divided on this. Not ALL Reformed believers agree on this matter.

 

[Elderone]

The Bible. My opinion is that if men would honestly examine themselves as to whether they meet the scriptural qualifications of the office of elder, and exclude themselves when they ought, we would have much sounder Sessions. More than one wife (divorced)? Unbelieving or unruly children? Rebellious or contentious wife? Criminal record? Financially irresponsible? Bad reputation? Don't stand. Some of those things can be changed - finances, reputation, behavior or faith of family members; but one should not stand until they do change, and for a long period. Others can't be changed - divorce, criminal record; and one should have the humility to accept that God has ordained that you not serve as an officer in His Church. No problem, there are plenty of other avenues of service available.

Good points, however, men with those problems should not have been ordained as Deacon's let alone be considered for Elder. The Session has the responsibility for choosing and thoroughly examining the men for any officer position in the church - a task they quite often don't do well - thus eliminating those who do not exclude themselves. No man should even be considered who is not very well known by at least two Elders. To do otherwise leads to less than sound officer corps and Sessions, as you say, and the sad state the church is in today.

 

[Elderone]

Great post on the husband of one wife requirement, Jim.

Another way to look at it is that the Bible is the instruction book for Christians.

If a man was divorced before being redeemed does that disqualify him?

The reformed Presbyterian officers I served with, and I, believe it does not.

 

[bradfordl]

If a man was divorced before being redeemed does that disqualify him?

If you hold that our redemption was given us before time began, that would be impossible. If you mean prior to one's awareness of that redemption, I hold that yes, it does disqualify him, and I fit into that category. Marriage was instituted by God before the fall of Adam and commanded of all men, unregenerate and regenerate. If two become one flesh, how are they then dissolved? Having a second wife does not dissolve the first union, otherwise why does the Lord call it adultery?

So, if a man has bound himself in infidelity to two contradictory covenants, he may be forgiven whatever sin was involved, but the covenants are not dissolved. The man is of compromised repute, and irreparably so. A consequence of sin, not a punishment.

If God had wanted me to be a Church Officer, He would not have ordained that I would be divorced. I have no problem with that. Father knows best.

Brad

 

[jer3119]

Its interesting. On the topic of "eldership". Can God use me despite my sinful past? I have found that God uses unqualified people to accomplish God’s spiritual purposes. Here are the following God’s CHOSEN/CALLED unqualified people to serve Him.
1. Lot got drunk and committed incest.
2. Abraham doubted God and committed adultery.
3. Jacob deceived his father.
4. Moses murdered.
5. David murdered and committed adultery.
6. Jonah got angry with God (in a sinful way)
7. Paul (Saul) murdered Christians
8. All 12 of Jesus disciples were not qualified to be the Apostles however Jesus called them.

God will use ordinary good people as well as ordinary very sinful people to accomplish great things. Through out the history (in the past 2,000 years), God uses people of limitless backgrounds who can minister “together” (unity) for Christ. God works all things together for His purposes.

For 3 years, Jesus taught His Disciples who became Apostles after His death. What kind of education did Jesus gave them? Reading all of the New Testament, I have come to conclusion that Jesus taught them Spiritual matters.

Teachers are to have good reputation. In the book of Titus, the requirements are: Show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose they may be ashamed because those have nothing bad to say about them. That teachers are to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. In 2 Corinthians 7:2 says that we "make room for others in our hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one." This is where "accountability" comes in. In 1 Timothy 3:1-3: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

In terms of "divorce", there is nothing in that scriptures that says "divorce" but rather "husband of one wife.".

What is the basic meaning of "husband of one wife." ? Can a man who lost a wife through death be qualified as an elder as "husband of one wife"?

Literally the Greek words are simply "one woman man" or "one wife man". One commentator translates as "one wife's husband." Whether this means one at a time or one during a lifetime depends completely on other considerations. Even the question on the meaning of "one at a time" depends on one's view of divorce as to whether a divorced man who has remarried is considered to be "one wife's husband."

There are mis-interpretations regarding this issue. Its really interesting (for me) to see how Reformed believers are divided on this. Not ALL Reformed believers agree on this matter.

Good points made here Jim.

I think just as context determines our understanding of scripture, or it ought to, I think it ought to also determine our understanding of the application of that scripture, as you rightly point out in your post.

Clearly, God hates divorce, and it should always be discouraged and reconcilitation sought, but as the Lord taught that there is an exception to the remarriage issue where the non offending party in an adulterous situation can remarry, similarly in 1Cor7 Paul speaks of one who finds themselves married to an unbeliever when both were married as such, but now one has been converted. Paul says stay married if the unbeliiever stays, but if the unbelieving spouse leaves, then the believer is free to remarry.

Again, all these things, it seems to me, point to our hearts, "the thoughts and intents of the heart", which the Word of God, under the guidance of the Spirit, is "a critic of". And while we can't know the heart as the Lord can, He has given us means and ways and directions to make sound judgements.

Much Christian love,
jer3119

 

[JimfromOhio]

If you hold that our redemption was given us before time began, that would be impossible. If you mean prior to one's awareness of that redemption, I hold that yes, it does disqualify him, and I fit into that category. Marriage was instituted by God before the fall of Adam and commanded of all men, unregenerate and regenerate. If two become one flesh, how are they then dissolved? Having a second wife does not dissolve the first union, otherwise why does the Lord call it adultery?

So, if a man has bound himself in infidelity to two contradictory covenants, he may be forgiven whatever sin was involved, but the covenants are not dissolved. The man is of compromised repute, and irreparably so. A consequence of sin, not a punishment.

If God had wanted me to be a Church Officer, He would not have ordained that I would be divorced. I have no problem with that. Father knows best.

Brad

In the concept of God's forgiveness, this also contradicts. God loves us very much and has forgiven our sin (i.e. adultery & divorce) when we confessed it from our heart. He not only forgives our sins but rebuilds our lives from where we are. Love hopes all things (1 Corinth 13). Love refuses to take human failure as final. With Christ in me, my human failures are never final. Love never keeps a record of wrongs. Love forgives and love is unable to think about them anymore. Forget the past and move on. Focus on the future as I focus on Christ at the same time. Romans 4:8 (also Psalms 32:2) "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him". That if a local church forgive those who sinned (divorce), our heavenly Father will forgive us. But if we refuse to forgive others, our Father will not forgive our sins.

When I remarried, God acknowledges our new marriage as valid before Him and now holds me and my second wife accountable to be faithful to each other. The marriage covenant is very sacred that my wife and I understand this much more now because of the past. But as Paul says, we need to put the past behind us, accept the forgiveness of Christ and serve and praise Him in the days remaining on this earth.

"What I am great advocate of looking into the past, I could warn everybody against living in the past. The only justification for looking to the past is that we may learn great lessons from it and apply them" (Martyn Lloyd-Jones)

By avoiding the mistakes of the past: "Those who fail to remember the past are condemned to repeat it" (George Santayana)

By repeating the victories of the past: "Those who fail to remember the past are condemned not to repeat it" (David B. Calhoun)

Something to ponder.

 

[Elderone]

If you hold that our redemption was given us before time began, that would be impossible.

Your right, I do hold to that. My question was worded badly and should have been "If a man divorces prior to his being aware of his elect status..."

I was also speaking of divorce within the narrow confines of Matthew 5:32, 19:9 and 1 Corinthians 7:15, with the man being the innocent party.

 

[bradfordl]

Your right, I do hold to that. My question was worded badly and should have been "If a man divorces prior to his being aware of his elect status..."

I was also speaking of divorce within the narrow confines of Matthew 5:32, 19:9 and 1 Corinthians 7:15, with the man being the innocent party.

Oh, I was being terse, Elderone, I knew what you meant - sorry.

But I don't know the answer to your question except to say that I was not innocent in mine. I don't see where the scriptural requirement exempts those ordained to innocently have more than one marriage. If it were my case, I'd disqualify myself, but that's just me. I've had Teaching and Ruling Elders as well as others argue that because my divorce was prior to repentence, it is not a disqualification. I have never been convinced, but don't think I'm qualified for that office even if they were right. And that's OK, too.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Really don't have any recommendations for study materials, although I would bet there's some fine Puritan writing that would suffice.

SDG

Brad

 

[bradfordl]

In the concept of God's forgiveness, this also contradicts. God loves us very much and has forgiven our sin (i.e. adultery & divorce) when we confessed it from our heart. He not only forgives our sins but rebuilds our lives from where we are. Love hopes all things (1 Corinth 13). Love refuses to take human failure as final. With Christ in me, my human failures are never final. Love never keeps a record of wrongs. Love forgives and love is unable to think about them anymore. Forget the past and move on. Focus on the future as I focus on Christ at the same time. Romans 4:8 (also Psalms 32:2) "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him". That if a local church forgive those who sinned (divorce), our heavenly Father will forgive us. But if we refuse to forgive others, our Father will not forgive our sins.

When I remarried, God acknowledges our new marriage as valid before Him and now holds me and my second wife accountable to be faithful to each other. The marriage covenant is very sacred that my wife and I understand this much more now because of the past. But as Paul says, we need to put the past behind us, accept the forgiveness of Christ and serve and praise Him in the days remaining on this earth.

"What I am great advocate of looking into the past, I could warn everybody against living in the past. The only justification for looking to the past is that we may learn great lessons from it and apply them" (Martyn Lloyd-Jones)

By avoiding the mistakes of the past: "Those who fail to remember the past are condemned to repeat it" (George Santayana)

By repeating the victories of the past: "Those who fail to remember the past are condemned not to repeat it" (David B. Calhoun)

Something to ponder.

I understand what you're saying, Jim, but I just want to point out that while we are forgiven, and thankfully so, that is a different thing from a consequence of sin. If I practice immoral behavior and contract AIDS, I may repent, but I will still have AIDS. If I get shot in the leg while robbing a liquor store, I may repent, but will still walk with a limp. If I abuse drugs and fry too many brain cells, I may repent, but will still suffer from being spacy. If I marry, then divorce due to my sin, then remarry, I will still have had more than one wife. In my view, even if it weren't due to my sin, I would still consider it as having more than one wife and be a disqualification. Whether my fault or no (and if it is then I bear responsibility), it is in the will of God, and as He has determined it to be, I will accept it.

A woman is disqualified (in faithful Churches) on the basis of something over which she has no control. Why would it be different for the innocent divorced man?

Perhaps someone can help me with another point. How does the scripture, "1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." indicate that the believer is free to remarry? That seems a large leap of inference. And then if that were even so, how does it then lead to such a man being qualified to hold Church office? Is there cross-reference scripture or something that would extrapolate to those ideas from this verse?

And again, sorry to have hijacked the thread. Maybe we should start a new one to discuss all this?

SDG

Brad

 

[JimfromOhio]

I understand what you're saying, Jim, but I just want to point out that while we are forgiven, and thankfully so, that is a different thing from a consequence of sin. If I practice immoral behavior and contract AIDS, I may repent, but I will still have AIDS. If I get shot in the leg while robbing a liquor store, I may repent, but will still walk with a limp. If I abuse drugs and fry too many brain cells, I may repent, but will still suffer from being spacy. If I marry, then divorce due to my sin, then remarry, I will still have had more than one wife. In my view, even if it weren't due to my sin, I would still consider it as having more than one wife and be a disqualification. Whether my fault or no (and if it is then I bear responsibility), it is in the will of God, and as He has determined it to be, I will accept it.

A woman is disqualified (in faithful Churches) on the basis of something over which she has no control. Why would it be different for the innocent divorced man?

Perhaps someone can help me with another point. How does the scripture, "1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." indicate that the believer is free to remarry? That seems a large leap of inference. And then if that were even so, how does it then lead to such a man being qualified to hold Church office? Is there cross-reference scripture or something that would extrapolate to those ideas from this verse?

And again, sorry to have hijacked the thread. Maybe we should start a new one to discuss all this?

SDG

Brad

This is "case-by-case" of each divorce cases. "Remarriage" is clearly not a sin when we follow specific biblical parameters. The parameters involve a man who has been widowed, the innocent victim of an unrepentant adulterer (which is my case), or someone who's been abandoned by an unbelieving spouse.

The phrase "the husband of one wife" does not mean that a person cannot have had a divorce in his past since none of the other qualifications listed refer to specific acts in the past (prior to salvation or subsequent to salvation) but rather to qualities which currently characterize in my life.

 

[Elderone]

Sorry for hijacking the thread

Don't give it a second thought, it has been a good discussion.

This subject has interested me for some time from a theological not personal standpoint. I learned that when the cross references didn't help with the answer go to the pro's, Calvin, Henry, Gill, Clarke and others, but that hasn't been very enlightening either. Some say the person abandoned cannot marry, while others say they can.

Perhaps the answer lies in the Biblically sound/good intentions of honorable men on Sessions, if that is possible.

iHs

 

[Elderone]

Thank you all for the suggestions and posts.