" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

[Ron Gurley]

Post # "Why did require the death of anyone? God could have simply forgiven us without anyone being punished, could He not have?"
A. Q1: Why did (God) require the death of anyone?
A1: It was Plan of the TRI-UNE GOD from eternity. A GOD-MAN died FOR all Mankind.

B. Q2: God could have simply forgiven us without anyone being punished?
A2: God the Father did not PUNISH God the Son!!
Forgiveness is a benefit of salvation given ONLY to BELIEVERS in God the Son.

"FOR" = Greek 1519 "eis" ~= into, unto, to, towards, for, among, (because of?) (in place of?)

FORGIVENESS / REMISSION ...Greek 859 - "aphesis'...release from bondage or imprisonment; forgiveness or pardon, of sins
(letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Forgiveness of Sin / Sin(s) is ONE of the spiritual benefits of salvation!...(all NASB)

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant,
which is poured out for many FOR forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out FOR many.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation,
By (knowing) the forgiveness of their sins,

Act 5:31
“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior,
to grant repentance to Israel, and (to grant) forgiveness of sins.

Act 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that
through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Ephesians 1:7
IN Him, we have redemption THROUGH His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of His GRACE

Colosians 1:14
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Post # "Why did require the death of anyone? God could have simply forgiven us without anyone being punished, could He not have?"
A. Q1: Why did (God) require the death of anyone?
A1: It was Plan of the TRI-UNE GOD from eternity. A GOD-MAN died FOR all Mankind.

B. Q2: God could have simply forgiven us without anyone being punished?
A2: God the Father did not PUNISH God the Son!!
Forgiveness is a benefit of salvation given ONLY to BELIEVERS in God the Son.

"FOR" = Greek 1519 "eis" ~= into, unto, to, towards, for, among, (because of?) (in place of?)

FORGIVENESS / REMISSION ...Greek 859 - "aphesis'...release from bondage or imprisonment; forgiveness or pardon, of sins
(letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Forgiveness of Sin / Sin(s) is ONE of the spiritual benefits of salvation!...(all NASB)

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant,
which is poured out for many FOR forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out FOR many.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation,
By (knowing) the forgiveness of their sins,

Act 5:31
“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior,
to grant repentance to Israel, and (to grant) forgiveness of sins.

Act 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that
through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Ephesians 1:7
IN Him, we have redemption THROUGH His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of His GRACE

Colosians 1:14
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins.

You didn't answer the very simple question.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Christ was more than punished. He was condemned. He was condemned to death, by the Father: “Sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God!] condemned sin in the flesh.” (Romans 3:25). Although He went willingly, Jesus did not put himself forward between God and man; God put Jesus forward between God and man. That punishment - our punishment was death.

 

[Ron Gurley]

“Sending His own Son in the "likeness" (like mankind!) of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God!] condemned sin ( NOT God the Son) in the flesh.” (Romans 3:25).

Romans 3 (NASB) ...Paul: Justification ( a legal defense: "Just-If-I-never sinned") by Faith
21 But now apart from the (Mosaic) Law the righteousness of God has been manifested,
being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; (IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS!)for there is no distinction;
23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the REDEMPTION which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
because in the forbearance of God, He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

“Sending His own Son in the "likeness" (like mankind!) of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God!] condemned sin ( NOT God the Son) in the flesh.” (Romans 3:25).

Romans 3 (NASB) ...Paul: Justification ( a legal defense: "Just-If-I-never sinned") by Faith
21 But now apart from the (Mosaic) Law the righteousness of God has been manifested,
being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; (IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS!)for there is no distinction;
23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the REDEMPTION which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
because in the forbearance of God, He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

"In the likeness" is the best argument. Christ HAD to become one of us in order to be condemned in our place. God could NOT just forgive our sin. I had to be justly punished in Christ. God cannot overlook sin. He is just. He is also merciful, so he bore the covenant curses on our behave. The penally from breaking the covenant, although He perfectly fulfilled it, is the reason we can be forgiven. The punishment I deserved could only fall onto Him if He were a man, and it is only be effective if He is God.

If the breaking of the covenant required punishment for the man who broke it, then Christ was punished. It's that simple.

“If you will not listen to me … if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease” (vv. 14–16a). - Leviticus 26:14-39

“But lif you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and movertake you. nin the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. owill send on you curses, confusion, and pfrustration in all that you undertake to do, quntil you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me."

Also see: Deuteronomy 28:20–68

 

[mkgal1]

OOO ...Q&A time. I get paid by the hour, Where do I send the bill?

You were the one to begin this thread. Why spend all this time if you seem to believe it's "work"? I don't believe you're obligated to post here.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post#106: " I don't believe you're obligated to post here. "

Nor are you. Bye!

 

[mkgal1]

Post#106: " I don't believe you're obligated to post here. "

Nor are you. Bye!

Wow.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm out, too.

 

[bling]

OOO ...Q&A time. I get paid by the hour, Where do I send the bill?

Q1: How is that not Penal Substitution?
A1: "Penal" implies PUNISHMENT.
God the Father did not PUNISH God the Son!

Q2. Why did Jesus use his last precious breaths to make this short statement?
A2:He (for the FIRST and ONLY instant) felt SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD/ God the Father.

Q3: So who else was there?(at the CROSS)
A3: God the Father + God the Holy Spirit

Q4: so could “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” be addressing a sincere question?
A4: No...God the Son is crying out to God the Father, His loving "Daddy".

Q5: Would using scripture (to) these ..be a good way to address these questions and shut them up
A5: No..BUT a lot of folks knew this Psalm:
Psalm 22:1 [ A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise. ] [ For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. ]
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

Q6: why did Jesus not just say: “Look at Psalms 22 for your answer"
A6: DUMB "why" question!

Q7: Why did Jesus direct these spiritual Jewish leaders to Psalm 22 for their answer? / Would that not be what they are seeing?
A7: He did not! / No!

Q8: so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to minf the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?
A8: God the Son was calling out in agony to His dear God the Father ONLY. Others MAY have heard??

Jesus does not have to waste His breath verbalizing anything to God since He knows God knows His thoughts and in other places where we do hear Jesus’ pray to God, he will say it was for the disciples’ sake, for them to hear.

Going through the Gospels we see Christ addressing every sincere question and comment, so why would His time on the cross be different?

When Christ does not directly address the insincere questions he addresses what is on the heart of the person asking.

You suggest “God forsook Christ at least for a while on the cross”, yet in Psalms 22: 24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Psalms 22 is clearly a prophecy about what Christ was going through on the cross and if the Pharisees when reminded of this they would immediate realize they are the ones on the other side shouting insults at the suffering one who God is with. Psalms 22 answers their specific questions.

We know God is there with Christ while He is on the cross because Christ talks to him, but you are saying for a while God leaves, but if God can be there most of the time why would he ever leave Christ, it really goes against lots of Psalms and other scriptures which say God will not leave us and never left us.