Submission.

[MoreCoffee]

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:8-9

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1 Peter 5:1-4

Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: God opposes the proud but bestows favour on the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

 

[Rick Otto]

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

It is your duty to be not ignorant of who and what you submit to, and as you are well aware, the office doesn't guarantee the integrity of the person holding it.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.



Authority = Dictator? Authority Negates Accountability?


I think a thread to discuss authority might be helpful...... Normally, "authority" among human leaders carries with it an equal responsibility. It perhaps could be argued that President Obama has the greatest authority of any American - but he also has the greatest responsibility: his authority does not negate accountability, it simply increases it.

I think some equate "authority" with "Dictatorship." Perhaps something of that nature could be ascribed to God, but not man. When I was a Junior in college, I suddenly realized I had missed a core requirement. To fulfill it, I could have AGAIN taken some lower division intro class in US or world history but instead, I got the prof's okay to take an upper division course in "Classical History" (Greece and Rome). I took it in hopes of learning about the world of Jesus (which the class hardly touched on) but I learned MUCH about the milieu, the mentality, the spirit of ROME. It's incredibly obsessed with POWER - unmitigated, unaccountable, anything-goes POWER. Centrality.... CONTROL..... submission.... obedience....... lording it over all. All this is uber-Roman. Truth, morality, right.... these are all off the radar, what matters is the POWER one can exercise over others to cause them to submit, obey. This was especially true after the Republic fell. Of course, the RC Denomination, formed by Rome in the image of Rome, had the paradigm of Rome to guide it (there was no other paradigm - especially in the west). The prof (a non-religious man) STRESSED that Rome never "fell" but continued - and his primary example was the Roman Catholic Church. For me, a LOT fell into place - all my experiences in the RC Denomination and with fundamentalist Catholics. And this uber-obsession with POWER, Dictatorship.... this obsession in the RC Denomination with denying accountability and responsibility, this uber-obsession with lording it over others..... it was a big part of why I left that denomination.



The great philosopher/theologian Mr. Miyagi:


There is a balance here..... Yes, as in all organizations (institutional or organic), in all disciplines (nothin' unique about Christian theology on this point)... there is the issue of authority; there is a repudiation of the extreme individualism (of say the RCC - nowhere is radical individualism better illustrated). BUT there is a counter, a balance - that of accountability, responsibility. Finding that BALANCE can be hard! But I sense that the RCC (and to a lesser degree, the LDS and also some groups many could label "cults") tend to ignore the accountability part. But I think modern Western Christianity often errs on the other side too - and we are left with relativism and "personal" religion. BALANCE. Authority and Accountability. One of the great philosophers and theologians of the 20th Century, Mr. Miygi of "The Karate Kid" said, "Go find the balance!" Ah.... not so easy. Most go to the extremes and loose it entirely.


True Teachers, False Teachers


Another point: "presbyter" who is uber-obsessed with the unmitigated POWER that self gives to self is one who should not be submitted to (See the Catholic Catechism # 87, see also "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle and Prophet Bruce McConkie, see just about any "cult" on this point). If I signed up for a class and the Prof began by insisting, "What I'M saying - individually, exclusively, currently - is exempt from truth (and anything and everything else for that matter) and you are to OBEY and SUMMIT to ME individually regardless of truth or right - don't question, don't hold ME accountable!" Well, I'd not only leave the class but report it to the Administration.

I sense that the TRUE TEACHER welcomes the light and comes into the light, insists on accountability, because for the TRUE TEACHER, truth matters rather than the unmitigated power of self alone to lord it over others who passively submit. The true teacher desires truth to prevail (not the power of self) and is confident that God's truth will prevail.

My study of the "cults" convinced me that the FALSE TEACHER hides from the light, denies the light, rejects accountability (in the sole case of self alone), and builds around self HUGE, THICK, TALL walls of egoism, self-centeredness, self-glorification, insisting that SELF is so special, so enormously powerful as to exempt self alone from accountability, responsibility.... all must SUBMIT to SELF ALONE as unto God Himself because what matters to the false teacher is the power and lordship of self.



God's Warning Should NOT be Ignored..... God MEANT it!


Over and over and over - OT and NT - God repeatedly warns us of false teachers.... to beware of false teachers..... to test all teachers. I think this at least implies that teachers CAN be wrong. And nowhere - nowhere - is the singular, individual, exclusive, particular, individual, current RC Denomination ever given a complete "pass" on accountability. Those that exempt SELF from this probably realize they need to. See CCC 87, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. See "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie. See just about every "cult" here is on this issue.


Dictators.... false teachers...... must deny accountability/responsibility and must demand obedience/submission - sometimes as unto God Himself. It's a function of dictators. They must stress SELF.... they must insist how SPECIAL (almost divine) is SELF.





Thank you.


pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Standing Up]

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:8-9

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1 Peter 5:1-4

Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: God opposes the proud but bestows favour on the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

Which presbyters? Which church? Which submission?

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Other than that, you bet!

 

[tz620q]

.
This was especially true after the Republic fell. Of course, the RC Denomination, formed by Rome in the image of Rome, had the paradigm of Rome to guide it (there was no other paradigm - especially in the west). The prof (a non-religious man) STRESSED that Rome never "fell" but continued - and his primary example was the Roman Catholic Church.
.

So Edward Gibbon says we're the cause of the fall of the Roman Empire and this guy says we're the continuation of the Roman Empire. That's what I love about history. It's such an exact science. :o

 

[razzelflabben]

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:8-9

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1 Peter 5:1-4

Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: God opposes the proud but bestows favour on the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

the early church saw submission for example to the government as obedience to a point, once that point is reached, it is willingly accepting their correction. That point is as the scriptures say...."as unto the Lord" or without sin. So, if the priest is asking you to sin, you refuse but willingly accept the results of that defiance without argument or disruption.

 

[tz620q]

.
it was a big part of why I left that denomination.
.

In which Catholic Church were you formally confirmed? I know in the past you mentioned going to RCIA class; but we always have a few that quit before the end and are never officially received into the Catholic Church.

 

[Nanopants]

My study of the "cults" convinced me that the FALSE TEACHER hides from the light, denies the light, rejects accountability (in the sole case of self alone), and builds around self HUGE, THICK, TALL walls of egoism, self-centeredness, self-glorification, insisting that SELF is so special, so enormously powerful as to exempt self alone from accountability, responsibility.... all must SUBMIT to SELF ALONE as unto God Himself because what matters to the false teacher is the power and lordship of self.

That sounds painfully familiar, and reminds me of quite a few "orthodox" pastors/preachers demanding obedience to their version of "God's will."

God's Warning Should NOT be Ignored..... God MEANT it!

Over and over and over - OT and NT - God repeatedly warns us of false teachers.... to beware of false teachers..... to test all teachers. I think this at least implies that teachers CAN be wrong. And nowhere - nowhere - is the singular, individual, exclusive, particular, individual, current RC Denomination ever given a complete "pass" on accountability. Those that exempt SELF from this probably realize they need to. See CCC 87, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. See "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie. See just about every "cult" here is on this issue.

The most amazing thing to me, is that one can simply read from the prophets and apostles, to be confronted by all sorts of accusations, and especially by those who wave "God" around like a big submission stick. But, isn't the most ironic thing that, in their vehemence against one's reading of the prophets and apostles, they are actually revealing an absence of submission? I think it's a strange, paradoxical thing, that even a reasonably intelligent and literate child could simply open the scripture and wield that kind of power, whatever it is, over pastors and theologians. But then, something tells me I shouldn't be surprised.

Dictators.... false teachers...... must deny accountability/responsibility and must demand obedience/submission - sometimes as unto God Himself. It's a function of dictators. They must stress SELF.... they must insist how SPECIAL (almost divine) is SELF.

I find that they rarely, if ever, mention self in doing so. That just wouldn't be very effective.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

I remember I attended a Pentecost Church for about 2 years back in mid 2000 where the "Elders" were used as a type of "ushers", generally 50yrs or older, but still in submission to the Pastor

Greek Lexicon :: G4245 (KJV)
Strong's Number G4245 matches the Greek πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros),
which occurs 67 times in 67 verses in the Greek concordance

Strong's Greek: 4245. (presbuteros) -- elder

The word presbyter derives from Greek πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros), the comparative form of πρέσβυς (presbus), "old man".[1]

presbuteros: elder​

Original Word: πρεσβύτερος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: presbuteros
Phonetic Spelling: (pres-boo'-ter-os)
Short Definition: elder
Definition: elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of a Christian assembly.

Universally, advanced in life, an elder, a senior: opposed to νεανίσκοι, Acts 2:17; opposed to νεώτερος, 1 Timothy 5:1f (Genesis 18:11f; Wis. 8:10; Sir. 6:34 (33); ; 2 Macc. 8:30). οἱ πρεσβύτεροι (A. V. the elders), forefathers, Hebrews 11:2; παράδοσις (which see) τῶν πρεσβυτέρων, received from the fathers, Matthew 15:2; Mark 7:3, 5.

a. among the Jews, α. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from the elderly men):

b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches):

Cf. ἐπίσκοπος.). the twenty-four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court, seated on thrones around the throne of God: Revelation 4:4, 10; Revelation 5:5, 6, 8, 11, 14; Revelation 7:11, 13; Revelation 11:16; Revelation 14:3; Revelation 19:4.

No Greek lexicons or other scholarly sources suggest that "presbyteros" means "priest" instead of "elder". The Greek word is equivalent to the Hebrew zaqen, which means "elder", and not priest. You can see the zaqenim described in Exodus 18:21-22 using some of the same equivalent Hebrew terms as Paul uses in the GK of 1&2 Timothy and Titus. Note that the zaqenim are not priests (i.e., from the tribe of Levi) but are rather men of distinctive maturity that qualifies them for ministerial roles among the people.


​

7 Traits to Look for When Selecting a New Church Elder - Christian Media Magazine

7 Traits to Look for When Selecting a New Church Elder

.

 

[Rick Otto]

So Edward Gibbon says we're the cause of the fall of the Roman Empire and this guy says we're the continuation of the Roman Empire. That's what I love about history. It's such an exact science. :o

Oversimplification can look like paradox.
The fall of the Roman empire and the rise of the Vatican, is simply the story of a change in name of an imperialist franchise. Look who was crowning Europe's kings until Napoleon snatched his crown out of the pope's hands and crowned himself.
Constantine was an administrative genius. He had his burning cross vision when he needed God on his side, and as a result, learned "if you can't beat them, join them... and become their leader. (But he shrewdly didn't wash away all his sins with baptism until he was on his deathbed).
Americans won the War of Independance militarily, but lost the War financially.
That is why we have corporate fascism in place of a constitutional republic.
Our federal, state, county, and municipal governments have all become corporations. Capitalism has triumphed over democracy and communism.
Truth is an exact science sometimes, too.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:8-9

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1 Peter 5:1-4

Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: God opposes the proud but bestows favour on the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

Well I'm not sure what any of those verses except 1 Pet 5:5 has to do with the question, but that one verse settles it: as Christians we need to be respectful and attentiveness to the shepherding of our pastors.

 

[com7fy8]

Hebrews 13:17 does say, "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." So, I see from this, that God has His leaders whom He approves and trusts; so, if He trusts the leaders whom He approves, then certainly He expects us to trust them, too.

And it says "Obey". But this means obeying a leader whom God has chosen . . . one who meets the standards of 1 Timothy 3:1-10 . . . I understand and offer.

But there are groups who have not held themselves to the Bible standards for who God approves to "take care of the church of God" (in 1 Timothy 3:1-10).

We can be expected to be able to tell the difference > John 10:1-30 > we are expected to find who God approves, and not go only by say-so of people we don't even know personally. A leader is an example; I think you need to know an example personally, in order to follow his example. And Peter plainly says, of real leaders >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And this is how we are to be with others . . . not lording ourselves over anyone . . . not controlling and using anyone. But feed example of love to each one.

1 Corinthians 11:19 shows me that even the Corinthians could be expected to be able to tell the difference between those whom God approved and those who were not approved. An example leader feeds us how to be real and relate with God, how to share tenderly with one another of God's children, and how to do loving good to any and all others. So, we can tell if a leader is truly helping us with this, to mature more.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well I'm not sure what any of those verses except 1 Pet 5:5 has to do with the question, but that one verse settles it: as Christians we need to be respectful and attentiveness to the shepherding of our pastors.

The first is about humility and among the elements of humility is submission so that is why 1 Peter 3:8-9 is there.

1 Peter 5:1-4 is there as context for 1 Peter 5:5. I could have put the first five verses together in a single quote but I wanted to separate 5:5 because it is a paragraph on its own. 5:1-4 helps set the scene by reminding presbyters that they too are answerable and need to avoid abuses and anything that seems to be abusive.

Hope that explains my thinking for choosing those verses.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The first is about humility and among the elements of humility is submission so that is why 1 Peter 3:8-9 is there.

I addressed the issue of humility, and noted the individual RC Denomination and its insistences of it itself for it itself exclusively in terms of that in post #3.





.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Hebrews 13:17 does say, "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." So, I see from this, that God has His leaders whom He approves and trusts; so, if He trusts the leaders whom He approves, then certainly He expects us to trust them, too.

And it says "Obey". But this means obeying a leader whom God has chosen . . . one who meets the standards of 1 Timothy 3:1-10 . . . I understand and offer.

But there are groups who have not held themselves to the Bible standards for who God approves to "take care of the church of God" (in 1 Timothy 3:1-10).

We can be expected to be able to tell the difference > John 10:1-30 > we are expected to find who God approves, and not go only by say-so of people we don't even know personally. A leader is an example; I think you need to know an example personally, in order to follow his example. And Peter plainly says, of real leaders >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And this is how we are to be with others . . . not lording ourselves over anyone . . . not controlling and using anyone. But feed example of love to each one.

1 Corinthians 11:19 shows me that even the Corinthians could be expected to be able to tell the difference between those whom God approved and those who were not approved. An example leader feeds us how to be real and relate with God, how to share tenderly with one another of God's children, and how to do loving good to any and all others. So, we can tell if a leader is truly helping us with this, to mature more.

The first is about humility and among the elements of humility is submission so that is why 1 Peter 3:8-9 is there.

1 Peter 5:1-4 is there as context for 1 Peter 5:5. I could have put the first five verses together in a single quote but I wanted to separate 5:5 because it is a paragraph on its own. 5:1-4 helps set the scene by reminding presbyters that they too are answerable and need to avoid abuses and anything that seems to be abusive.

Hope that explains my thinking for choosing those verses.

I figured it was something like that, so I'd like to echo com7fy8's point that pastors to whom we must truly submit do not command that authority simply by their ordination vows, but by their biblical qualifications to be shepherds of the people of God. Only inasmuch as they meet those qualifications and are properly ordained do they command respect and deference.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I figured it was something like that, so I'd like to echo com7fy8's point that pastors to whom we must truly submit do not command that authority simply by their ordination vows, but by their biblical qualifications to be shepherds of the people of God. Only inasmuch as they meet those qualifications and are properly ordained do they command respect and deference.

Yes, and it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority and the ability to discern that before they ordain a man, and should the man prove false at a later date it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority to act.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Yes, and it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority

According to the very self-same. At least in the individual RC Denomination.

But I don't think they mean "authority." I think they mean unmitigated, unaccountable dictatorship.

I suspect true teachers among us welcome the light and come into the light, eager for accountability, confident that God's Truth will prevail - eager for truth to triumph, not the unmitigated power of self to lord it over others as the Gentiles do. I suspect it is the false teacher among us who must hide in the dark, reject the light, protest accountability (for self exclusively), replace the issue of truth with the absolute, authoritarian, dictatorial power of self individually, and just demand docilic submission to self alone as unto God Himself.




Thank you.


pax


- Josiah





.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Yes, and it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority and the ability to discern that before they ordain a man, and should the man prove false at a later date it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority to act.

What if the bishops themselves fail in meeting these qualifications?

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, and it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority and the ability to discern that before they ordain a man, and should the man prove false at a later date it is the bishop and his advisors who have the authority to act.

They have authority if they meet the qualifications . . .

Paul directs that we ordain a man who is "the husband of one wife" and who has been proven in his own home first, to see if he is able to "take care of the church of God" (1 Timothy 3:1-10). I would say this means being able to care for people in our Father's personal and family caring and sharing way . . . not distant and impersonal and with no experience in real life and real marriage and bringing up a family.

But there are individuals who have thrown this out; certain individuals even refuse to consider married men for being pastors, though our Apostle Paul clearly says to ordain men who have been proven in their own homes, first, before they are qualified to be just considered.

So, if a leader throws this out, he or she has thrown out his or her authority to be a Christian leader, I must consider, between me and Jesus. And in the darkness of disobedience a person can fail to be able to see who is being considered for ordination; and I have heard that high-up leaders have actually ordained con artists, multiple murderers, and predators. And ones of these appear to not go by our Apostle Paul's standards in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn for Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29-30)

But Peter could trust the people to select for him men who they knew were truly full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. So, even Jesus Christ's sheep can tell the difference > Acts 6:3. So, if leaders can't tell the difference and have ordained evil people, this to me is a warning sign that they possibly are not with Jesus in His ability to sense who God has qualified.

 

[BobRyan]

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

It is your duty to be not ignorant of who and what you submit to, and as you are well aware, the office doesn't guarantee the integrity of the person holding it.

So then each of us go to our magisterium and each finds that they all "agree" to condemn certain doctrines held dearly by 'the other guy's" magisterium.

Was that supposed to be a surprise?

Paul speaks to church leadership in Acts 20

Acts 20
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Gal 1:6-9

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (APOSTLES!), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!




It is the magisterium of the one true infallible nation-church started by God at Sinai - that crucifies Christ.


As we all agree.



in Christ,


Bob