submission

[erin74]

Hi,

Not trying to start a debate. Just curious.

I have just deleted all my posts from a discussion in the Marriage forum on submission that I believe is heading to another debate.

I find that as someone who believes in traditional biblical submission, where a wife submits to her husband, and not visa versa, I am constantly having to defend myself from claims that this means that the wife may as well not have a relationship with God, as it can all be achieved through the husband.

Can I ask if I am in the minority here with this view (that wives ought to submit to their husbands but not visa versa) without causing debate?

Also, I know a lot of you are involved in debates quite regularly. How do you keep from being discouraged while debating? Also I was trying to suggest we attempt to understand one anothers view rather than using extreme examples to make the other 'side' look ridiculous (is that what a straw man is?). Is there anyway to suggest this without being admonished for suggesting that there were only two views, or for suggesting that debate was actually occuring when they saw it as 'friendly discussion'? I dunno - maybe I'm just over-reacting.

Sorry - I am just a bit discouraged at the moment, and I want to try and work out how to do this better.....

erin

 

[oworm]

Eph 5:22-33 gives the clearest answer. The wife submits to her husband.The husband loves the wife as Christ loves the church. This is a high calling on the husband but when you think about it the wife will most gladly submit to the kind of authority which reflects the servant leader attitude of Jesus.

 

[erin74]

Yeah - I found a lot take Eph 5:21 to mean that husbands and wives should submit to one another. I always took it to be an introduction to what is to follow. That is:

wives submit to husbands
children submit to parents
slaves submit to masters

That we should submit to one another as we fall into these relationship categories.

I always think the wife got the easy bit too!

Also - I have heard it taught that our relationship to one another reflects that of the godhead. That is we relate to one another as the father, son and spririt relate to one another. With order and appropriate submission. Any thoughts?

 

[tryme]

I find that as someone who believes in traditional biblical submission, where a wife submits to her husband, and not visa versa, I am constantly having to defend myself from claims that this means that the wife may as well not have a relationship with God, as it can all be achieved through the husband.

Can I ask if I am in the minority here with this view (that wives ought to submit to their husbands but not visa versa) without causing debate?

Totally agree that the wife is to submit to husband.
I get very sick of political correctness and womens lib.

We are to follow the Bible NOT the world.
That WILL put us in opposition and cause grief.

Praise God for grief.
We are told in the Bible our walk is not going to be an easy one.

 

[Knight]

Can I ask if I am in the minority here with this view (that wives ought to submit to their husbands but not visa versa) without causing debate?

I agree with your position on this. (But I'm a man so what do I know? )

Also, I know a lot of you are involved in debates quite regularly. How do you keep from being discouraged while debating?

I don't get so much discouraged as frustrated. My "coping method" for this is to walk away. It's been my experience with this board (and I've been here awhile) that a topic always comes back.

Also I was trying to suggest we attempt to understand one anothers view rather than using extreme examples to make the other 'side' look ridiculous (is that what a straw man is?). Is there anyway to suggest this without being admonished for suggesting that there were only two views, or for suggesting that debate was actually occuring when they saw it as 'friendly discussion'? I dunno - maybe I'm just over-reacting.

That is pretty much what a straw man is. You'll get accused of it a lot even when you're not guilty of it.

Understanding one-another's views is not the issue. Disagreeing with them is. I understand why arminians think the way they do but I disagree.

We must remember that we need to stand for the truth. If that truth is offensive then so be it but we should not be the perpetrators of that offense. Meaning, we can present the truth in a non-offensive way but it can still offend.

Remember also that this is a message board. By its very nature and size you are going to get people with incredibly diverse views. The trick, I think, is being secure in your convictions.

My advice: If you're burned out with the debates then leave them alone for awhile. Remember, no topic is ever really gone.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I said my piece regarding submission within the marriage. Most have ignored mine as well. People often their own opinion regarding what submission really means spiritually and within marriage.

 

[edie19]

If a husband truly loves his wife as Christ loved the church, submission isn't an effort at all - it's a normal reaction to that greatest of loves.

edie

 

[JJB]

When women rebel against the scripture concerning the nature of our relationship with our husbands, it goes all the way back to Genesis. Women want to rule over their husbands, but we are called to submit. I used to work in a company that was all female. My, oh my, the fights for position was quite something to behold! We (women) are control/power freaks because of our natural, sinful nature.

Some things I keep in mind when talking with fellow believers: We are all in different places in our faith walk. Perhaps God has not dealt with them yet on this topic. Pray.

Walking away for awhile is a good thing. I've had to walk away on more than one thread. We also need to be spending time with God daily. Discouragement, as Jon recently said, can be seen as a good thing. With all the apostasy running around Christendom, perhaps the time is soon when God will raise up another Spurgeon, Edwards or someone of that caliber.

Take heart erin74! We understand you and God will bless you for standing for His truth.

 

[oworm]

If a husband truly loves his wife as Christ loved the church, submission isn't an effort at all - it's a normal reaction to that greatest of loves.

edie

Thats it

 

[JimfromOhio]

If a husband truly loves his wife as Christ loved the church, submission isn't an effort at all - it's a normal reaction to that greatest of loves.

edie

That's the key. My wife submits to me completely because she KNOWS I love her and will not take advantage of her obedience/complete submission. My wife submits because she KNOWS I love her and I do submit to her feelings and wishes as I am biblically able.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

I'm young and don't know much about marriage, but I'll chime in.

I agree that it is the wife who submits to the husband. But then I find myself having to explain what I mean by this. I like to quote Doug Wilson on this:

"Feminism is like strict democracy—a flat horizontal line. Masculinism is like a divine right of kings monarchy—a straight vertical line. But a biblical marriage is more like the lines of a complex Celtic design. It is like a feudal monarchy, with the monarch having true authority in his assigned realm, but with the vassals having a different but equally true authority in their respective realms. In feudalism, those in authority owe certain things to those for whom they are responsible, and those under authority have the right to demand it. Those under authority owe certain things to their liege-lord, and the one in authority has the right to require it of them. But all the persons involved in this are equally bound in an organic constitutional way. No one person is absolute."

I see in Scripture that the wife has authority in certain areas (e.g. 1 Cor. 7:4). So I think it is the duty of the husband to submit in these areas, and that he is ultimately responsible for ensuring that the wife properly exercises her authority. This is not the same kind of submission envisioned by the "horizontal line" view, but there is submission by the husband.

 

[pinkieposies]

If a husband truly loves his wife as Christ loved the church, submission isn't an effort at all - it's a normal reaction to that greatest of loves.

edie

! I agree.

I am a newlywed {and a pretty stubborn one at that} and so I slip up with this one sometimes , but I do agree that the husband is the spiritual head of the household and it is the wife's place to submit to his spiritual authority. I find it is most easy to submit to my husband when he is kind and loving with me, and he lets me know that he would only decide what he considered to be the best for me.

But I also believe marraige should be a constant submission to each other. Some situations or circumstances may call for submission on my husband's part. A man submitting to his wife in one particular instance isn't neccessarily letting her walk all over him and take over his responsibility as the head of the household. A man who doesn't heed the words or advice of his wife is a foolish man indeed {as our pastor has told us }!

Of course my husband is the final authority and if he really thought it was best that I let him make a final decision, I would, because I trust him with my life. And we are still learning when it is the right time for me to submit and when it is the right time for him to allow me to make a final descision. But I believe a marraige relationship is constant give and take, and if we didn't submit to each other we would be heading for disaster.

I am not disagreeing with you at all. Maybe that's just a little extra opinion of mine, but it has worked pretty well with me and my husband so far.

God Bless,
Erin

 

[erin74]

I'm young and don't know much about marriage, but I'll chime in.

I agree that it is the wife who submits to the husband. But then I find myself having to explain what I mean by this. I like to quote Doug Wilson on this:

"Feminism is like strict democracy—a flat horizontal line. Masculinism is like a divine right of kings monarchy—a straight vertical line. But a biblical marriage is more like the lines of a complex Celtic design. It is like a feudal monarchy, with the monarch having true authority in his assigned realm, but with the vassals having a different but equally true authority in their respective realms. In feudalism, those in authority owe certain things to those for whom they are responsible, and those under authority have the right to demand it. Those under authority owe certain things to their liege-lord, and the one in authority has the right to require it of them. But all the persons involved in this are equally bound in an organic constitutional way. No one person is absolute."

I see in Scripture that the wife has authority in certain areas (e.g. 1 Cor. 7:4). So I think it is the duty of the husband to submit in these areas, and that he is ultimately responsible for ensuring that the wife properly exercises her authority. This is not the same kind of submission envisioned by the "horizontal line" view, but there is submission by the husband.

this is very interesting - the vertical horizontal thing has just been raised over there. I might just use this.

 

[jak]

All of us believe in submission! some think its one-way, others that its two-way...me included.

About debates...I've been on many forums, and yes, people are different. I don't mind disagreement, but (rarely) if someone is being rude or just doesn't try and see my point of view, then I tend to (I hope tactfully!) sign off. At the same time, my expecting them to take the effort to understand me means that I should try and do the same for them, so I try to look for common ground that we can agree about, and begin discussing from there. Its not always easy! But I like discussion...I find it makes me think, and teaches me a lot... I may change my view, or find my convictions getting stronger...it works both ways. But either way i am thinking and learning...

What is sad is when we start discussing some very Christian virtue or doctrine without a semblance of Christ-like kindness, patience or love. I keep having nightmares of what some non-Christian who wanders onto some of our "christian" sites (not this one!)would think of us, and Christ!