Submission

[Glorianna]

How would you help someone that is struggling being submissive to her fiance/husband because she likes being dominant too much?

 

[f U z ! o N]

no offense but i hate this stupid submissive stuff. i don't think anyone should have to submit to anyone. yes i know its in the bible but i still don't agree with it. i would hate for my girlfriend to "submit" to me. i respect someone who can stand up for themselves.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

The answer depends on what you define as dominant and submissive.

I generally see this issue, in the broadest sense, as a man's trying to justify treating his wife like a slave.
I see submission as operating like a team rather than independently. You are interdependent, equal parts, working together to get through life. If anything this makes submission a mutual thing.

 

[Glorianna]

Thanks so much for your help Blue Impulse. I always value what you have to say about things and I think you're completely right. By nature, humans are selfish and want our own way. We don't like submitting to others. So we have to shout out to God for help. But it's so hard sometimes. I mean, when is there time? We're often so caught up in what's going on that we don't take the time to pray for help like we should. You make it seem so easy!

 

[JesusWasn'tWhite]

Small note: a wife is to submit to her husband.
A fiance may want to start learning to submit to her soon to be husband.
Girlfriends are not called to submit.

 

[Glorianna]

The answer depends on what you define as dominant and submissive.

I generally see this issue, in the broadest sense, as a man's trying to justify treating his wife like a slave.
I see submission as operating like a team rather than independently. You are interdependent, equal parts, working together to get through life. If anything this makes submission a mutual thing.

Biblical submission is a yielding surrender. It is an act of one's own accord. Biblical submission submits to another from a position of strength, not weakness. It is not about indulging the self-centered interests of a woman's husband, but rather about helping him to be the kind of man and husband God intends him to be.

 

[Glorianna]

Small note: a wife is to submit to her husband.
A fiance may want to start learning to submit to her soon to be husband.
Girlfriends are not called to submit.

Yes, I agree with this. Although I also believe that we should put the needs and wants of others above those of our own... at least to a certain extent.

 

[Glorianna]

I'm doing a little bit of research about submission and I came across this which I found to be quite interesting:

"The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved."

If a husband wants to protect and love his wife and considers her to be his equal, why do so many wives have problems with submission?

 

[f U z ! o N]

im not married but i have a problem with it because it makes the woman seem inferior and that she can't stand up for herself because the husband is the leader.

 

[ashes2beauty]

If a husband wants to protect and love his wife and considers her to be his equal, why do so many wives have problems with submission?

I think it has to do with the false idea that submission means to let the husband control your every move. The husband being the leader in the relationship, and the head of the household has nothing to do with control. It has to do with being the "priest" of the family. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church. And just as the church is to yeild to God, wives are to yeild to their husbands.

Submission is not a bad thing... and to the person who says that they don't agree with it even though its in God's word, you can't pick and choose what you will listen to when it comes to God's commands... God doesn't work that way.

 

[Leanna]

If a husband wants to protect and love his wife and considers her to be his equal, why do so many wives have problems with submission?

I wasn't going to post here so as not to upset you, but since you asked this question I will reply. My "problem" with this issue is that I don't believe God commands it nor was it his intention for women to submit to their husbands. If a husband wants to protect and love his wife and considers her his equal, why does have have need of submission? If a wife wants to love honor and respect her husband, why does she need to submit?

I think there are other ways to accomplish these goals and have a good marriage.

I don't see how the wife giving the husband the final say on the color the living room is painted is beneficial to the marriage. I think a couple working together and learning how to compromise and decide how to paint the living room together is a better way to grow in a marriage. You learn to communicate and how to put each other's needs first by learning how to come to decisions together. I think it is a hindrance on many Christian marriages when the woman is meek and the man is dominant and they follow the "submission" stance because the woman does not grow as a person, they do not learn to communicate, and the man ends up becoming even more dominant and big-headed.

Yeah... so anyway, back to the point, I just can't see how me allowing my husband to decide what color to paint the living room is going to help my marriage. I picked out some colors, being the highly analytical type of person I am, brought them home and showed them to my husband and asked him what he thought. He told me which ones he liked or did not like and we narrowed it down. Then we discussed our furniture and came to a conclusion on paint colors.

Maybe this example is not preferred. I usually get this one.... "what if the man wants to move across the country, and the woman does not? What if you can't agree?" Well I feel that if it is a regular occurance that you can't come to a conclusion together that counseling would be a good approach. I think two adults should be mature enough to decide on things together and realize that not always do they get their way. I don't always get my way. We used to live in another state. There came a time when we were considering moving. I didn't want to, I had a good job that paid well and I loved the city. My husband wanted to move, he wanted to buy a house and be closer to our families. We went with what he wanted to do after discussion. We agreed 100%. Although I cried as I moved, I didn't want to, I knew that it was the best thing and would accomplish our goals the best. People just need to line up the goals and decide what is best for the family and not the individual. It wasn't about me, it was about my husband AND me and what would be best for the future.

Here is another example. I want to do Natural Family Planning(a form of birth control not involving drugs) because I have been on the pill since shortly before my marriage 6 years ago. (minus my pregnancy) I don't believe being on these drugs that long is good. My husband does not want to do Natural Family Planning right now because we can't afford to be pregnant. We discussed it and our options, he agrees that me on the pill for a long time is not a good thing. So we decided on a compromise that we both feel 100% good about. I will stay on the pill until the next time we want a baby, and then after the birth of that child we will try NFP. I am glad to wait for him, and he is glad to try this new way that will be better for my long term health.

I can't think of examples of him doing what I wanted to do.... hmmmm.... oooh I know!! On Saturdays in the fall my husband feels that the appropriate thing to do is to sit around every Saturday and watch football. Hehe. I do not. So sometimes we watch football and other times we go out and do something fun that I want to do. Sometimes I even have him go shopping with me, which he hates but he's a good sport.

Another problem I have with submission. I hear all the time about how certain Christian couples believe in it, but when I truly look at their marriage and what they actually DO.... they don't really follow it. Its more like "its the right thing to say" and I don't want to be guilty of just saying I believe in it and then not really followig it, although I did do this early in my marriage. For a couple years I was a "submission woman".... but then it was sort of a weird thing, didn't make any sense, we weren't working with our personality strengths for example. Anyway since changing points of view and having a new view on these same verses our marriage has improved and we have learned from valuable skills.

So I hope that helps.

 

[KET20]

To Fuzion and Leanna: AMEN!!!!

 

[Glorianna]

So Leanna, what do you think it means when the Bible tells the wives to submit to their husbands?

 

[FireOfGod]

no offense but i hate this stupid submissive stuff. i don't think anyone should have to submit to anyone. yes i know its in the bible but i still don't agree with it. i would hate for my girlfriend to "submit" to me. i respect someone who can stand up for themselves.

You can have a woman who can stand up for herself, but still submit to her husband.

A wife has a husband to help guide her and help be the voice of the Lord through him, to be a comfort, and to help keep her in line so she won't go crazy.

The one thing you should agree with in the Bible, is the Bible as a whole. Not just the parts that you like and that make you comforable, or that you agree with. It's just not reality, and whether you agree with it or not does not matter.

Your girlfriend "submitting" to you doesn't mean she is below you. It just means that she respects you and honors what you say, as you (if you were married) are the head of the house and are the voice of the Lord in the house. You are not the Lord, but the Lord's voice through you. Husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loves the church, and wives are supposed to submit to their husbands as the head of the household.

It basic common sense. Just because a woman submits to her husband doesn't mean that she's not independant or have her own thoughts.

 

[lozzie]

If a husband wants to protect and love his wife and considers her to be his equal, why do so many wives have problems with submission?

I would hazard a guess at saying it's because we live in a fallen world...

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

To me this seems to say that husbands are supposed to act with as much love as Christ did for us. Jesus loved us so much that he sacrificed his life... Thats a pretty deep love! The deepest in fact!

But if your husband loves you and treats you in such a way as Jesus did for all of us, it would be hard not to want to submit The two go hand in hand...

However, I also think thats talking about the big things... I dont think you should havve to submit to one persons choice in everything that happens in your lives, thats not showing any respect or love for the other person.

I think the basis behind this is that if the husband is looking out for the best interests of both parties then it shuldn't be an issue. I think you can still have your say and be submitting to your husband, if he is doing the right thing by you - which very well may be listening to what you have to say and acting on your advice

 

[KristianJ]

Helps to know that submission is not a dirty word. It's not an inference that the woman in a marriage relationship has no right to choose anything, but to defer to her husband. The concept of submission to me, whatever situation it's in, is a demonstration of one's respect, concern and trust in another. It only seems to convey inferiority because of the way that the word has been twisted and deformed from its original meaning.

I actually think that the role of the woman is not as "weighty" as the man's, and shows that this whole concept is as reciprocal as things can get. The man's love for hhis wife is to be as that of our Lord Jesus Christ, to love in a manner which I guess literally is to love her to death. We have to realise what submission is and what submission is not before we can say whether or not we agree with it. But in the end, these are words to usod through his apostle Paul, and we can't opt to shelve it because we don't quite like the message that it seems to be conveying. It's there for a purpose - and we need to unlock its purpose and understand what it's saying to the married couple.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

I only have one question...

Where's Johannes!??

It's been over 24 hours, and no response!

For us - the only time submission comes up is when these threads come up, and we're both pretty sick of it.

We just work together - sometimes we go with my opinion, sometimes his, and if we don't agree - we work until we find a compromise.

We've lived together too, and there's never been a situation in about 2 years of living together (and 4 years together) where there's just been no compromise been reached.

We're equals, and we live our life, and it's all good. Simple! Barely a blip on our radar...

Sasch

 

[f U z ! o N]

well i still prefer the idea of submitting to each other not her submitting to me.
what if the husband is well pretty much an idiot or doesn't think maturely on some issues. does the wife just sit there and listen? no she better stand up for herself. men can and will be wrong at some points. i want my future wife to slap me in the face and bring me back to reality if need be not just sit there and "submit to me". yes we can love each other like Christ loves us but i prefer a 2 leader scenario and not a one leader scenario. plus, back then women were not allowed to have any power. today they are. is it wrong for a woman to be in power?

 

[Leanna]

For us - the only time submission comes up is when these threads come up, and we're both pretty sick of it.

We just work together - sometimes we go with my opinion, sometimes his, and if we don't agree - we work until we find a compromise.

We've lived together too, and there's never been a situation in about 2 years of living together (and 4 years together) where there's just been no compromise been reached.

We're equals, and we live our life, and it's all good. Simple! Barely a blip on our radar...

Sasch

Right.... us too.... I sorta don't see the "big deal"....? If it isn't broken, why fix it.

Glorianna, if you want to follow old fashioned submission, then you should. But I think sometimes it ends up that we fight against our natural strengths. I am a decisive strong willed woman too. It is a strength not a weakness, not something to be beat down. I just had to learn how to lay it down and willingly do what he wants me to do sometimes, and he also has to lay down what he wants to care for me sometimes. Paul emphasized the equality of all believers, but he did not suggest overthrowing Romans society to acheive it. While I do think that the general concept of submitting to one another is a good one, the idea that man must make final decision is man made and cultural. It is along the same lines of why I do not believe that I need to wear a hear covering... the Bible also discusses that, and yet most of us do not wear head covering? It is because it also was cultural. I didn't post on your thread to stir up dissension, you can follow what you believe. But now you have your original question answered.

 

[KristianJ]

is it wrong for a woman to be in power?

I'll elaborate on this when I have time, but I do believe that there are several instances where it is clear that the Bible does not support male subordination.