Submission of Wife Challenge

[Kiterius]

And in that case you and your wife are not equal in the decision making process, she submits to you. And that is, of course, a matter between you and your wife as to how your marriage works.

Now let me tell you a tale about a couple, this happens over and over again.

One of the spouses begins a slow decline into losing more and more mental functioning, usually said to be Alzheimer's syndrome. It is often the man. Over time, the ability of the mind slips. Things become forgotten. There comes a time when it is not longer safe to let the person drive. There comes a time when it is no longer possible for the person to write checks, plan shopping trips, dress himself, and finally at the last to remember how to feed himself.

Its a gradual decline over many years. A great tragedy.

At the last stages, clearly the wife of this victim is totally in charge of all decision making. Of necessity.

But what about the beginning? When it is not yet clearly seen what is happening? By what rule, and when, does a family basing its dynamics on a theory that the man is the head of the house to whom the wife submits, alter that dynamic because of the fading mind of the man? Is it necessary to wait until critical mistakes are made, or is it possible for the more alert and capable spouse to step in, when needed, before that stage is reached?

My wife and I are equal as persons and we have equal responsibility in decision making. You don't understand that two people can be equal yet different. That's your problem.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

My wife and I are equal as persons and we have equal responsibility in decision making. You don't understand that two people can be equal yet different. That's your problem.

Well, let's just say I'm not figuring out how what you are saying is consistent. I'm not understanding how you manage to do that. But like you say, no doubt I'm just dense.

 

[ken777]

My wife and I are equal as persons and we have equal responsibility in decision making. You don't understand that two people can be equal yet different. That's your problem.

While husband & wife are equal before God, and each has an equal responsibility to contribute to joint decision making, when ultimate authority is invested in the husband, I would call that submission ... which is pretty much how my marriage works.

 

[Paidiske]

Aside from the "Mr. Smith makes more decisions" thing which others have pointed out, I suspect another difference, and that is that Mrs. Jones takes the initiative more than Mrs. Smith. She might do more long-term thinking/planning, make more suggestions, do more research around various options, etc.

It's not a given, and different couples might find differences on this, but I think when a wife has more participation in decision making she's likely to put more into asking herself questions like "Where do I want to be in ten years?" and thinking possibilities and how to achieve them, and so forth, than if she thinks her role is to be where her husband discerns they should be in ten years.

 

[Maria.V.H]

Ideal Christian family where the wife submits???? Excuse me???, what planet do you come from??, because clearly we are not from the same I thought we had evolved since then, but apparently we have not?? Submission is an old stupid thing, in reality if you believe in Christianity there should be no submission, because men and women are equal. Seriously, if a man told me what to do, i would beat him with a frying pan A man tells me what to do?? ha,ha that is the funniest thing i have ever heard!!!!!
It´s a very easy question, in one family where the wife submits, she is a robot, always serving the man, has no voice. It´s a dictatorship, but men seems to love to be the boss, maybe because they have low selfesteem otherwise i do not see the point in submissing anyone, it´s a sadistic way of being. Christianity is about me not being better than you, you not being better than me, why on earth do we keep putting fences between us????? it´s 2017 for Christ sake, when will we learn?? love people, love is the answer, how can you love someone if you control them???? It is not pure love.

 

[thesunisout]

What is difficult about this topic as it is usually presented is that no one lays out the bare facts for what it means for a husband to have authority over his wife. Usually, when someone brings this up, the fact is mentioned that the husband has authority over his wife and then instead of expounding the topic the discussion turns to how husband is supposed to soften it, or even do away with it. But I think we also need to honestly talk about this so that the husband has the wisdom to handle this authority. We can't do that if we always soft pedal it.

For example, the scripture says that the husband is head of the wife just as Christ is head of the church, and that the wife is to submit to the husband as she does to the Lord. What does that mean to you, wives and husbands alike?

 

[HenryM]

Of course that submission is the only way reality works.

Because - no relationship between two people can be perfectly split 50%-50%. One has to tip the scales, and that's the leader. Other submits, or follows the leader.

Since not all decisions between two people have the same quality, leader doesn't actually lead in all areas, and follower doesn't follow in all areas. But overall, there is a split. And it cannot be 50-50, because that would be some "perfect" scenario, and it doesn't exist because we are not perfect. So one gets to be a leader, overall.

Some could say that role of a leader is fluid, so man can be a leader during certain periods, and then woman would take over. But I don't see that it's possible. Leader in a relationship enjoys to lead, follower in that same relationship enjoys to follow.

I would think that most of those who are for "equality in leadership role" (which doesn't exist) are in fact for women being leaders of men. Or maybe one man. If someone wants it, ok, but say it aloud, don't hide behind "voice for equality".

By the way, we submit to gravity and air pressure. We submit to man made laws. We submit when we lovingly listen or read what our fellow being on Earth has written or composed or said. Let's not even drag God into this undeserving topic.

So I don't see what't wrong with submission. It's the order of our existence. We all submit a lot, and lead somewhat.

P.S. Maybe what's hot in this kind of topic is the idea that submission in a relationship is forced upon. But submission we are talking about here cannot be forced. If one doesn't want to be a (overall) follower he or she can't submit to the (overall) leader. Submission in a relationship is, basically, a belief in wisdom of the other side. And since one can be a leader, other a follower, overall, one has to have more of this kind of belief than the other. That's the one who submits.

P.P.S. As I mentioned in somewhat similar thread, I see this kind of "debate" as one of the end of days acts in real time. So it's best to have your say, if you feel the need, and step off...

 

[PloverWing]

Of course that submission is the only way reality works.

Because - no relationship between two people can be perfectly split 50%-50%. One has to tip the scales, and that's the leader. Other submits, or follows the leader.

I spent a few years worshipping with Quakers, and that experience was instructive. They govern their Meetings (their word for a congregation) by consensus. At a meeting for business, people will speak, or listen, or sit quietly. Sometimes the whole meeting might pause to sit in quiet reflection together. There is an effort to respect the Light that is in each other person, and also the Light that is in one's self. As the meeting goes on, some members may choose to yield to others' wisdom or preferences. If the meeting reaches a consensus, then a decision has been made. If the meeting does not reach a consensus -- if some members still disagree and that disagreement is important to them -- then a decision has not yet been made, and more work is needed. Maybe it will be a long time before a decision is made. The Quaker philosophy is that it is more important to respect the Light in each person than it is to reach a decision.

I think this is an interesting way to look at marriage. Before encountering the Quakers, I thought of decision-making as monarchical (the leader decides what the group will do) or democratic (take a vote). But decision-making by consensus presents an alternative to both. The Quakers make it work in their meetings, and it can work in a family as well.

 

[bcbsr]

Today I issue the "submission of wife" challenge.

Some hold that wives, but not husbands, should "submit". Others hold for equality in a marriage. My challenge is . . . what does that mean? Here's how to understand the challenge.

Consider two families, the Smiths and the Jones. In the Smith family, we have an ideal Christian family where the husband and wife feel the wife should submit, but of course they also feel the husband needs to love his wife and be willing to give his life for her.

In the Jones family, they embrace the idea of marriage equality, and emphasize loving and serving each other.

Your challenge is to explain what differences you will see in the actions between each other in their family setting. No fair asking which idea they embrace. No, just explain what they will do, in each family, that would be different from what the other family does. If you were a guest in each of their homes for while, how would you be able to tell the one from the other?

The role relationship between husband and wife is liken to that of Christ and the church in Ephesians 5. The husband taking the role of Christ and the wife the role of the Church.

Who is "lord" in that relationship? (See also 1Peter 3:1-7)

 

[Archivist]

My girlfriend and I regard ourselves as being equals in our relationship. Neither of us is in charge; we mutually submit to each other.

And, no, one person does not have to be in charge. If we disagree on something--I want A but she wants B--we talk. We explain our reasoning. We compromise. Sometimes that means we do A. Sometimes it means we do B. Sometimes we decide that C might really be a better option.

As to the hypothetical, I agree with what Paidiske has already said in her excellent post.

 

[ken777]

Submission is often confused with domination. Christian submission in marriage is a spiritual principle where the husband represents Christ and the wife represents the Church.

In Christian submissive marriages, the wife is respected as a source of God given wisdom, intuition & strength. A wife who does not express her feelings & ideas is failing in her responsibility to contribute to the marriage. A husband who demands obedience is also failing to practice Christian submission.

 

[Greg J.]

An element in the examination of wife submission is that it is God who holds the wife accountable. If the husband has the right to hold her accountable, it is because of what they agreed upon at marriage. If she did not agree to that, it's none of the husband's business; it's the wife's and God's business. In fact if the husband loves her, he will do all he can to make it easy for her. In fact, God commanded exactly that (Ephesians 5:21).

I have not found it particularly profitable to examine this issue with males who are not sacrificing their whole lives for their wives.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Ephesians 5:25, 1984 NIV)

How can anyone understand submission to another human unless they have done it themselves?

 

[Ubuntu]

“Women were created from the rib of man to be beside him, not from his head to top him, nor from his feet to be trampled by him, but from under his arm to be protected by him, near to his heart to be loved by him.”
― Matthew Henry, An Exposition of the Old and New Testament

 

[MayMcFlurry]

How were politics like in the new testament? I wouldn't think they were democratic right? But in the modern age they are. And that naturally extends to the family where every person gets an equal say and an equal vote in any decision making process.

You have to remember the time the bible was written in. Their culture was much different to ours now.