Submission of Wife Challenge

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Today I issue the "submission of wife" challenge.

Some hold that wives, but not husbands, should "submit". Others hold for equality in a marriage. My challenge is . . . what does that mean? Here's how to understand the challenge.

Consider two families, the Smiths and the Jones. In the Smith family, we have an ideal Christian family where the husband and wife feel the wife should submit, but of course they also feel the husband needs to love his wife and be willing to give his life for her.

In the Jones family, they embrace the idea of marriage equality, and emphasize loving and serving each other.

Your challenge is to explain what differences you will see in the actions between each other in their family setting. No fair asking which idea they embrace. No, just explain what they will do, in each family, that would be different from what the other family does. If you were a guest in each of their homes for while, how would you be able to tell the one from the other?

 

[Dave-W]

Well - to Mr Smith I would ask him one question: have you read Hebrews 13:17?

It says he has to obey and submit to congregational leaders, just like he wants his wife to submit to him.

 

[stanria]

The biggest difference between the two groups is the extent to which the husband considers his wife's opinion.

For example, say the couple is looking to buy a house.
The Mr Smith may have a house he is interested in, but his wife isn't so sure. Mr Smith may decide to go ahead and buy the house even though his wife doesn't agree.
If Mr Jones has a house he is interested in, but his wife isn't so sure, they may discuss together and decide together if they will buy the house.

A house is an extreme example, but simpler, less extreme decisions are made on a daily basis. Who makes the coffee? Who does the dishes? Mr Smith will make the final decision, while Mr and Mrs Jones will decide together.

In a sermon once, discussing this very topic, the pastor said the following which I have always remembered:
The bible calls for wives to submit to their husbands. But sometimes (more commonly nowadays), the husband can choose to make his wife his equal, and to being her alongside him. He chooses to highly value and respect her opinion.

My own personal note on this:
In a relationship, there's going to be conflict. And one of the critical, basic skills that a couple needs is healthy conflict resolution. Sometimes, it's easy. Perhaps the compromise is clear. Other times, both people have really strong, opposing views on which they refuse to back down. These conflicts can be the most damaging to the relationship. In this case, someone has to gave way to the other person. And the bible is saying that the person to give way is the wife.

If we look at the life and teachings of Jesus on humility, where he so often says that we should be humble. Matthew 11:29 ("learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart") and Matthew 20:16 ("So the last will be first and the first will be last") and over and over again Jesus emphasises serving others. I believe that every Christian should be seeking to serve his Lord and his neighbour. As such, husbands are also called to be servants, to their wives too.

Additionally, the bible speaks about how God can do as he pleases with his people (Jeremiah 18: “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?”), so I am in no place to question my position relative to my husband. My husband is a servant hearted man who respects my opinion and has made me his equal, but there are still times where I have to submit to him. And I am happy to do so, because I am happy to be a servant and obey the calling of my Lord Jesus.

A final note:
Every relationship is different. There are healthy relationships on both sides of the spectrum. A couple of generations ago there were many Smiths and hardly any Joneses. Now it seems to be going the opposite direction. I don't think there is one correct answer.

Also, this is my first post here. If I'm doing something wrong, please let me know!

 

[Kiterius]

Today I issue the "submission of wife" challenge.

Some hold that wives, but not husbands, should "submit". Others hold for equality in a marriage. My challenge is . . . what does that mean? Here's how to understand the challenge.

Consider two families, the Smiths and the Jones. In the Smith family, we have an ideal Christian family where the husband and wife feel the wife should submit, but of course they also feel the husband needs to love his wife and be willing to give his life for her.

In the Jones family, they embrace the idea of marriage equality, and emphasize loving and serving each other.

Your challenge is to explain what differences you will see in the actions between each other in their family setting. No fair asking which idea they embrace. No, just explain what they will do, in each family, that would be different from what the other family does. If you were a guest in each of their homes for while, how would you be able to tell the one from the other?

Not participating in the challenge, because you've set up a false dichotomy.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Not participating in the challenge, because you've set up a false dichotomy.

An interesting idea there. Can you enlighten us all exactly what you mean by saying that?

 

[PloverWing]

My answer is similar to stanria's. I would expect the relationship between Mr. and Mrs. Smith to be something like that of loving parents with their children. I love my children and would give my life for them. I listen to their ideas and preferences, and very often I go along with their preferences. But if we really differ on what action to take, then the parent's choice overrides the child's choice. Similarly, Mr. Smith will listen to Mrs. Smith's preferences and accommodate her as much as possible, but if they truly disagree, then Mr. Smith's decision is the family decision. I don't know how much of this decision-making process would be visible to an outside observer. I don't usually tell my (teenage) kids what to do in public, in front of their friends; if I tell them they can't participate in some activity, that's usually a private discussion. So Mr. and Mrs. Smith's decision-making may similarly be behind closed doors. But Mrs. Smith knows that whenever they reach an impasse, she will have to yield to Mr. Smith.

In the case of Mr. and Mrs. Jones, if they reach an impasse, then the family hasn't yet made a decision, and they still have to work it out. This is something like the situation when you, as an individual, haven't yet made up your mind because you're weighing two competing and equally attractive (or unattractive) possibilities. You have to work through the pros and cons until you settle on something, and so do the Joneses. As before, if the Joneses are negotiating their decisions in private, the decision-making process may not be obvious to a casual outside observer, but the Joneses themselves would be aware of it.

 

[Kiterius]

An interesting idea there. Can you enlighten us all exactly what you mean by saying that?

You've made the choice between a) a marriage in which the wife is submissive to the husband; or b) a marriage in which the wife and husband are equal. That's a false dichotomy because in many marriages (including my own) the wife and husband are regarded as equal but different. Neither the wife nor the husband is superior to the other, but they have different roles to play.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You've made the choice between a) a marriage in which the wife is submissive to the husband; or b) a marriage in which the wife and husband are equal. That's a false dichotomy because in many marriages (including my own) the wife and husband are regarded as equal but different. Neither the wife nor the husband is superior to the other, but they have different roles to play.

Would it be fair to say that you are pointing out there would, actually, be no discernable difference between the families based merely on whether they say they treat each other as equals vs saying the wife submits and the husband shows his love?

 

[Kiterius]

Would it be fair to say that you are pointing out there would, actually, be no discernable difference between the families based merely on whether they say they treat each other as equals vs saying the wife submits and the husband shows his love?

No.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

No.

Then please share what would be the difference, as you understand it.

 

[Kiterius]

Then please share what would be the difference, as you understand it.

I've already shared that I don't agree with your false dichotomy.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I've already shared that I don't agree with your false dichotomy.

And I don't understand you. You say its a false dichotomy . . . which would mean they really aren't different . . . . but then you say, when I ask if they really aren't different . . . an emphatic NO. So you have me confused about what you are trying to say. It might be a great insight or it might be silly but how could I ever know? You won't make your point clear.

 

[ken777]

The church my wife and I belong to teaches submission. In our marriage it relates mostly to 'spiritual decisions' not so much the practical day to day ones.

By spiritual decisions I mean the format & readings of our daily devotions, our tithes & offerings, our participation in church services, etc. We see it as the husband's role to seek the leading of the Lord in these matters.

In the more practical aspects of life, I probably followed my wife's suggestions more often than my own ... partly because I wanted to please her, and partly because a wife has a God given intuition in matters pertaining to the house & children.

 

[Kiterius]

And I don't understand you. You say its a false dichotomy . . . which would mean they really aren't different . . . . but then you say, when I ask if they really aren't different . . . an emphatic NO. So you have me confused about what you are trying to say. It might be a great insight or it might be silly but how could I ever know? You won't make your point clear.

In your OP, you gave two possibilities for marriage.

Either...

Husband and wife are equal

or...

Husband and wife are not equal; wife submits to husband.

I offered a third...

Husband and wife are equal; wife submits to husband.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

In your OP, you gave two possibilities for marriage.

Either...

Husband and wife are equal

or...

Husband and wife are not equal; wife submits to husband.

I offered a third...

Husband and wife are equal; wife submits to husband.

If the wife submits to her husband, how is she equal?

 

[Kiterius]

If the wife submits to her husband, how is she equal?

She is an equal partner in the marriage, with a different role to perform than her husband does. Her role is to submit to her husband - her husband's role is to lead her - but neither role is superior to the other.

"There is nothing said (in Ephesians 5:22-6:24) of the wife’s abilities, talents, or worth; the fact that she submits to her own husband does not imply that she is inferior or less worthy in any way." - source: Does a wife have to submit to her husband?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

She is an equal partner in the marriage, with a different role to perform than her husband does. Her role is to submit to her husband - her husband's role is to lead her - but neither role is superior to the other.

"There is nothing said (in Ephesians 5:22-6:24) of the wife’s abilities, talents, or worth; the fact that she submits to her own husband does not imply that she is inferior or less worthy in any way." - source: Does a wife have to submit to her husband?

Well, there is equality and there is equality. She might or might not be of equal weight on the bathroom scale . . . but we are not talking about that kind of equality, are we? She might be of equal IQ . . . and that seems to be the kind of equality of which you speak here . . . but that does not mean equal weight in the family decision process, does it?

Equal weight in the family decision process is precisely what you seem to NOT be willing to give the woman in the marriage, if I interpret your post correctly. Please feel free to set me straight.

 

[Anguspure]

Today I issue the "submission of wife" challenge.

Some hold that wives, but not husbands, should "submit". Others hold for equality in a marriage. My challenge is . . . what does that mean? Here's how to understand the challenge.

Consider two families, the Smiths and the Jones. In the Smith family, we have an ideal Christian family where the husband and wife feel the wife should submit, but of course they also feel the husband needs to love his wife and be willing to give his life for her.

In the Jones family, they embrace the idea of marriage equality, and emphasize loving and serving each other.

Your challenge is to explain what differences you will see in the actions between each other in their family setting. No fair asking which idea they embrace. No, just explain what they will do, in each family, that would be different from what the other family does. If you were a guest in each of their homes for while, how would you be able to tell the one from the other?

Hopefully all Christian families will be living in equal submission to the Spirit (who at the moment is telling me to go and have some lunch with my beloved).

 

[Kiterius]

Well, there is equality and there is equality. She might or might not be of equal weight on the bathroom scale . . . but we are not talking about that kind of equality, are we? She might be of equal IQ . . . and that seems to be the kind of equality of which you speak here . . . but that does not mean equal weight in the family decision process, does it?

Equal weight in the family decision process is precisely what you seem to NOT be willing to give the woman in the marriage, if I interpret your post correctly. Please feel free to set me straight.

Actually, I am discussing equality of persons. However, if you now want to discuss decision-making within marriage...

I'd say that in a complementarian marriage such as the one my wife and I enjoy, we have equal responsibility in the decision making process.

That said, our roles are different. You seem to be having difficulty in understanding that difference does not necessarily mean inequality.

My wife's responsibility, equal to my own, is to offer her ideas, advice, and suggestions to me to ponder. I then do so, taking her words and the affect the decision will have upon her into full consideration. All of this is done, of course, prayerfully. It's important to both of us to be submitting ourselves to God.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Actually, I am discussing equality of persons. However, if you now want to discuss decision-making within marriage...

I'd say that in a complementarian marriage such as the one my wife and I enjoy, we have equal responsibility in the decision making process.

That said, our roles are different. You seem to be having difficulty in understanding that difference does not necessarily mean inequality.

My wife's responsibility, equal to my own, is to offer her ideas, advice, and suggestions to me to ponder. I then do so, taking her words and the affect the decision will have upon her into full consideration. All of this is done, of course, prayerfully. It's important to both of us to be submitting ourselves to God.

And in that case you and your wife are not equal in the decision making process, she submits to you. And that is, of course, a matter between you and your wife as to how your marriage works.

Now let me tell you a tale about a couple, this happens over and over again.

One of the spouses begins a slow decline into losing more and more mental functioning, usually said to be Alzheimer's syndrome. It is often the man. Over time, the ability of the mind slips. Things become forgotten. There comes a time when it is not longer safe to let the person drive. There comes a time when it is no longer possible for the person to write checks, plan shopping trips, dress himself, and finally at the last to remember how to feed himself.

Its a gradual decline over many years. A great tragedy.

At the last stages, clearly the wife of this victim is totally in charge of all decision making. Of necessity.

But what about the beginning? When it is not yet clearly seen what is happening? By what rule, and when, does a family basing its dynamics on a theory that the man is the head of the house to whom the wife submits, alter that dynamic because of the fading mind of the man? Is it necessary to wait until critical mistakes are made, or is it possible for the more alert and capable spouse to step in, when needed, before that stage is reached?