submission, not DD

[charityagape]

Well, what did happen to it? LOL. Gone a couple of days and a wildly interesting thread just
disappears.


While I was away, I was thinking about something I wanted to share. Since I can't post it
there I'll just go ahead and say it here.

I just wanted to discuss biblical submission a little more because of the distorted picture of
it brought forth in the DD thread. I know people will still have plenty to say and debate
about the scriptures in the bible on wifely submission. But I wanted to set the record straight
about the horrible picture of it presented earlier.


First some definitions.

Main Entry: sub·mit
Inflected Form(s): sub·mit·ted; sub·mit·ting

1 a : to yield to governance or authority b : to subject to a condition, treatment,
or operation
2 : to present or propose to another for review, consideration, or decision

1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another b : to permit oneself to
be subjected to something
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another


Main Entry: obey

1 : to follow the commands or guidance of
2 : to conform to or comply with <obey an order> <falling objects obey the laws of physics>
intransitive senses : to behave obediently
- obey·er noun


Submission must be voluntary and informed not forced. Blind obedience is not submission.


WIVES

Ephesians 5

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as
Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church
submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything...
.., and the wife must respect her husband




Colosians 3

18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.


1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do
not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives


CHILDREN

Ephesians 6

1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother"

Colosians 3
20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

Proverbs 22

6 Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it.

15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.


(There are many many verses in the bible directing you to train, teach, discipline,
instruct, punish, etc children.)


Notice. Wives ARE NOT at all subject to a husband in the same way a child is subject to
a parent. Children are to obey, an often involuntary process. Wives are to submit not
from force, not because their husband forced them too. It's a command from God and the husband is
never instructed to enforce this command on their wives.

HUSBANDS AND FATHERS

Epheisans 5

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to
present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish,
but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own
bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but
he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body.
31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the
two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and
the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself..


Colosians 3

19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
21Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

1 Peter 3

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with
respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that
nothing will hinder your prayers.


***

These are most of the main NT verses discussing the roles of the family. Husband, Wife,
Parents, Children. The commands given to the wife are not given through the husband
but directly to her.

And they say to submit. What does that mean? We've already established that it
does not mean she is to be treated like a child. She's not. Read Proverbs 31,
the ideal Godly woman should be extremely capable and efficent.

So what's it mean to submit?

Ephesians 5:22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head
of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in
everything.25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself
up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other
blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as
their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own
body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of
his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about
Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband.


In this famous, or infamous, passage on submission the husband is compared to Christ and
the wife is compared to the church. So, to see how a wife should sumbit to her husband
that husband has only to look at how he has a member is supposed to submit to Christ and
most importantly WHY he submits to Christ.

This has often been distored into, the wife is accountable to her husband and the husband
is accountable to God. So WRONG. That is not what the passage say. The Christians wife
the Christian husband are equally accountable to God as they are both the "church" or part
of the church.

Anyone remember those test questions?


Apple is to tree as tomato is to

(a) strawberries
(b) vines
(c) carrots
(d) dirt

Well. Wife is to Husband as Church is to Christ. Its a picture. So any Christian man who
expects his wife to submit to him must examine how and why he submits to Christ.

Here's a few things Christ said to His followers. To those who submitted to Him.

Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a
ransom for many."

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as
a ransom for many."

Luke 22:26
But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest,
and the one who rules like the one who serves.

Luke 22:27
For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is
at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.


Christians love Jesus Christ. Because He first loved us. He is devoted to us and came to serve
us and to die for us. That's why we follow Him, why we submit to Him.

And that's why a woman would vountarily submit herself to her husband, not because he'd
spank her or punish her or tell her she was a bad Christian. No, she'd submit to him because of
his utter devotion to serving his wife and family like they were his own flesh, even caring for
and prefering them above himself.

Some thing that submission does or should make a woman a man's servent when really that's so
opposite of what the picture of Christ and the church is. Christ came to serve the church.

 

[Caylin]

Some of us don't really care for what the bible says and aren't interested in submiting to anyone.

 

[crazyfingers]

What's DD?

 

[christalee4]

You go, Charity!!!!

 

[Skydancing]

DD = Domestic Discipline where the husband keeps him wife in submission by beating her!!! I refuse to be in submission to anyone!

 

[loriersea]

I submit to my husband. He will also submit to me. It depends on the situation. If a matter is more important to me than to him, he will submit to a decision I make, if we are unable to come to a mutual decision. If a matter is more important to him, I will submit to a decision he makes, if we are unable to come to a mutual decision. But I certainly would not submit to him on all matters, or expect him to submit to me on all matters. There are some decisions--what career path I choose, how long I breastfeed my son, whether I should cut my hair--that I appreciate his input in and will strive for mutual agreement on, but I'm not going to submit to his wishes if they conflict with mine. And, I certainly wouldn't want or expect him to submit to my wishes about his career path, his facial hair, or his choices of video games.

It is the rigidity of the idea of wifely submission that bothers me. Sure, the wife should sometimes submit to her husband. But, the husband should sometimes submit to his wife. Otherwise, you are creating a very unequal situation in which the wife is not going to be happy, because she is allowing someone else to make decisions for her.

Plus, in some ways I see wifely submission as an abdication of adult responsibility. I know some submissive wives who tell me they like submitting because that means if things go wrong--with finances, with their home--that the responsibility lies with their husband alone. I think that's a cop-out. I'm an adult. I am capable of making adult decisions. If I decide that I am going to hand ultimate responsibility for my family's financial decisions to my husband, for example, and he messes up, I don't think that let's me off the hook at all. I am just as responsible, in my abdication of responsibility, as my husband was in his mismanagement.

So, submission is not a problem for me. I submit to my husband at times, and he submits to me at times. But, I certainly would not want our relationship defined by my submission, nor would I want it defined by his. I would prefer that we define the power structure of our relationship in terms of sharing and mutuality, with submission on either of our parts only being a last resort when we are unable to come to a decision together.

 

[Hackett]

Charity makes a very strong case. In fact, I am sure that where you find a husband truly submitted to the Lord you will find a wife gladly submitted to her husband.

 

[loriersea]

Charity makes a very strong case. In fact, I am sure that where you find a husband truly submitted to the Lord you will find a wife gladly submitted to her husband.

Wouldn't it just make more sense for the wife to submit herself to the Lord rather than her husband, and just skip the middle-man?

 

[Marie D]

Some of us don't really care for what the bible says and aren't interested in submiting to anyone.

If you "don't care for" what the Bible says, presumably you're not a Christian?

 

[Caylin]

If you "don't care for" what the Bible says, presumably you're not a Christian?

Thats what the little brain symbol means. Atheist.

 

[charityagape]

Some of us don't really care for what the bible says and aren't interested in submiting to anyone.

Well then don't worry about it. There was a deleted thread a couple of days ago that dealt with something called Domestic Displine, a really warped view of biblical submission. I just wanted to put the record straight.

 

[Skydancing]

The Bible is certainly not right on every issue! If it implies that a woman should be in submission to her husband then it is clearly wrong by any reasonable standards!

 

[charityagape]

I think you miss the point. Also, there is a case in the bible for submission of wife to husband. But, as I said both are equally accountable to God.


And as for submitting on breastfeeding or career path etc, a good husband wouldn't arbitrarily try and make decisions just because he's a big man.

 

[charityagape]

The Bible is certainly not right on every issue! If it implies that a woman should be in submission to her husband then it is clearly wrong by any reasonable standards!

Did you read the post? Submissions not a dirty work unless its misinterpreted to mean something negative. Like obedience, or servent, or slave, or child etc.

What image does submission bring to your mind? In fact, anybody, when you thing of the word submission, what do you think of?

 

[Arnold_Philips]

What's DD?

I thought Dungeons and Dragons... /geek

 

[Skydancing]

My dictionary reckons submission means meek and obedient or surrendering. I am not any of those things, nor would I wish to be!

 

[charityagape]

Your dictionary? Which one? Your personal dictionary, webster? Also, how does the bible define submission when it speaks of wives? That would seem, to a Christian, to be the most important definition.

 

[Skydancing]

Collins Dictionary. The Bible is not a rule book imo!

 

[loriersea]

And as for submitting on breastfeeding or career path etc, a good husband wouldn't arbitrarily try and make decisions just because he's a big man.

But if we take submission seriously, in that the wife has a duty to submit to her husband, than if the husband and wife sincerely disagree on these issues, it would be the wife's duty to submit to her husband.

A husband might have a very reasonable position. He might, for example, want his wife to give breastfeeding their baby a try, and she doesn't want to. His position is reasonable, responsible, and well-supported. But, it is her breasts and her milk. Is it her duty to submit to his will on this?

A husband might be right in dissuading his wife from pursing a degree in philosophy, knowing that she won't be able to get a job. But, it is her time in school and her future career. Is it her duty to submit to him?

There are many cases in which a husband and wife might both be coming to an issue sincerely, caringly, and responsibiy, and still come to different conclusions. In that case, I do not believe that default wifely submission makes any sense in the world today, where we understand that women are competant, intelligent agents (an understanding that people did not have in Paul's time, when women were either the property of their fathers or husbands) capable of making responsible decisions. Why should the husband make decisions for his wife that she is entirely capable of making herself?

 

[Marie D]

The Bible is certainly not right on every issue! If it implies that a woman should be in submission to her husband then it is clearly wrong by any reasonable standards!

The last person who said she didn't care to submit had an excuse - she was an atheist. But you have a Protestant crucifix by your name - how do you square this with not believing in submission?