Submission and What's in a Name

bliz · Jul 12, 2007

TerraSin said:
You would resent having the name of the man you love? I would seriously question whether or not you truly love this man if that's the case.

So, if you truly love your wife, why haven't you taken her name? The wife taking the husband's name is simply a social convention invented by humans, not a command from God.

RebornSinner · Jul 13, 2007

Bottom line: you and your fiance agreed that it was your decision. So the choice is yours. Nevermind why, or how, or who, or when, or why women are different than men. If either of you holds resentment because of the decision, then he/she will have to forgive the other and get over it. After all, you said it's not a 'engagement breaker', and again, you both agreed that it was up to you.

Pennelope · Jul 13, 2007

Symbrinity said:
Atlantians said:

But... seriously, I don't see how this is that big of a deal.

If it's not that big of a deal, then why do it at all?

If it's not a big deal, then why do lots of couples fight about it?

Again, hyphenating is not an option because it would sound ridiculous with our two names together.

Click to expand...

Just a quick note about not hyphenating because it would sound ridiculous.

My kids went to high school with a girl named Delaney Feigel-Stickles. And she was popular, too.

You just never know. '-)

Click to expand...

Pennelope · Jul 13, 2007

In my parents' generation (maybe your grandparents'), it was common for the woman to drop her original middle name and take her maiden name as a middle name. Even though I have a rather awkward ethnic name, that's what I did. Some folks just use the initial, but professionally, I often use the entire thing. It's distinctive, I appreciate the respect it gives my parents, and people don't actually have to call me by both names if it's awkward.

Atlantians · Jul 13, 2007

Symbrinity said:
Also - the Bible advises slaves to submit to their masters, in his passive, peace-promoting approach. But now that that hierarchy has been abolished, we do not follow this command anymore. What is the difference with the husband-wife dynamic?

We do still follow that command.
It applies to your job.

But I agree more with you.

Paul was assuring that what was true remained in effect.

According to Ephesians:
Women should not have authority over men, men should not over women.
In the marriage relationship a man is placed in the authority position, but is the "first among an equal".
The wife is not subordinate.
We know this because of the context.

Even the slave is called equal to his master.

And the children, equal to their parents.

In fact the Man is given such a counter-cultural command: Love your Wife as Christ loved the Church.

We are ordered to love our wives to the point of death.
To love, adore, nuture, provide for, care for.
We are called to be kind and soft with her.

Women are simply told, essentially: Keep up the good work.

Symbrinity · Jul 14, 2007

Thanks everybody for your great posts! It's great to see a variety of opinions on the topic amongst Christians.

We've talked about this a lot, and because we've agreed that it's ultimately my decision, I feel the pressure from my FH gradually subsiding, and as I get more and more accustomed to the idea that it is ultimately up to me, I feel very happy in my freedom to choose. I think this is what women want the most - the freedom to construct their own identity. It helps build that much more trust in your significant other, when you realize that they ultimately have your happiness and freedom at heart.

With a month and a half to go before the wedding, I am beginning to mentally prepare myself for the possibility that I might be taking on a different name, and what that's could feel like. While the pressure from my FH is largely gone, I am definitely feeling social pressure (both of our families would disapprove or at least criticize), and I'm beginning to realize that my FH was feeling this pressure too, and that was why he was so adamant in the first place.

I've been studying my Bible lots for answers and I've come to realize that the power of God can take away any resentment in my heart even if that resentment is completely justified. God can give us the power to forgive and let go in the face of all otherwise-indicating reasons.

Anyway, I haven't really made my decision yet, but I've discovered how to live at peace with myself and my FH no matter what I choose.

Thanks for the ideas about hyphenating, but I seriously don't it's gonna work....think of like "Weiss-White" or "Bleu-Blue" or something....it's that bad....

Aibrean · Jul 23, 2007

Well a lady I worked with was a Lawson and now is a Dawson but she hyphens so it's Lawson-Dawson. Hyphenating is becoming more and more popular I'm seeing around here.

MindyHere · Jul 23, 2007

Hi Symbrinity,

You remind me of myself when I got married 14 years ago. I was very upset about losing my name also, as it was unique and I always loved and was proud of it. I also thought - how can I no longer be Mindy LastName anymore?? Just the thought of that was very disturbing to me, and I couldn't wrap my soon to be name around my head.

I took his name because it was easy, and I wanted our family to have a name - not two. So I changed my name, and was irked for awhile when I kept signing my checks wrong for awhile or saying my old name instead of my new name when asked ... it was an adjustment.

I found out that when you marry, you will change. I dated my husband 3 years before we married and thought that there wasn't much that would change, but so much did. The funny thing about this was that while the name changed at first seemed to be, to me, what would be the most obvious and big change, it was actually the least.

I don't regret it now and I'm happy that I decided to take his name, and that our family of 5 all have the same last name.

Anyways, thought it would help to hear from someone in your position at one time.

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage - how exciting for you!

Where · Jul 26, 2007

It was mentioned earlier that some feminist readings were read and possibly assisted in forming your opinion on this issue. Do not succumb the feminist ideals nor worry about your identity. You have no identity except that you are in Christ, you are identified as His follower. In terms of submission, the Bible states, in a nutshell, that men and women are equal, yet their roles are different. The man is to love his wife sacrificially as Christ loves the Church. The woman is to submit to her husband and respect him. Submission only means that you aren't in the leadership role. This does not mean you are your husband's slave, because he has the responsibilty to love you in a Christlike way. You asked earlier for an example when submission would be necessary, or a scenario of how that could happen-I am not sure if one was given. Money is a good example- say something needs to be decided in terms of finances...perhaps you two are thinking of increasing or decreasing your giving to a charitible cause. You both believe in the cause, yet perhaps money is running a bit thinner. Of course of course of course you discuss and learn each others opinions. Most of all you two would pray. The submission comes in because ultimately it is your husbands choice as to what is happening with that money. He is responsible for making a good choice, and you are responsible for respecting him, even if you might not agree with him. Hopefully that helps.

bliz · Jul 27, 2007

Where said:
It was mentioned earlier that some feminist readings were read and possibly assisted in forming your opinion on this issue. Do not succumb the feminist ideals nor worry about your identity. You have no identity except that you are in Christ, you are identified as His follower. In terms of submission, the Bible states, in a nutshell, that men and women are equal, yet their roles are different. The man is to love his wife sacrificially as Christ loves the Church. The woman is to submit to her husband and respect him. Submission only means that you aren't in the leadership role. This does not mean you are your husband's slave, because he has the responsibilty to love you in a Christlike way. You asked earlier for an example when submission would be necessary, or a scenario of how that could happen-I am not sure if one was given. Money is a good example- say something needs to be decided in terms of finances...perhaps you two are thinking of increasing or decreasing your giving to a charitible cause. You both believe in the cause, yet perhaps money is running a bit thinner. Of course of course of course you discuss and learn each others opinions. Most of all you two would pray. The submission comes in because ultimately it is your husbands choice as to what is happening with that money. He is responsible for making a good choice, and you are responsible for respecting him, even if you might not agree with him. Hopefully that helps.

You are presenting a contemporary Christian view of submission in marriage, this notion of "final say". Please, show me where this is mentioned in Scripture. When I was raised in the church we were taught that men ruled the household - end of discussion. This new version has arrived since our culture in general has finally conme to accept that women too have brains. They may now speak, but they may not decide.

Both versions, IMHO, have it wrong. Ephesians 5:21 is the premise statement for the passages that follow about how people are to get along: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Wives are to submit to husbands, husbands to wives. Mutual submission.

Symbrinity · Aug 1, 2007

bliz said:
You are presenting a contemporary Christian view of submission in marriage, this notion of "final say". Please, show me where this is mentioned in Scripture. When I was raised in the church we were taught that men ruled the household - end of discussion. This new version has arrived since our culture in general has finally conme to accept that women too have brains. They may now speak, but they may not decide.

Both versions, IMHO, have it wrong. Ephesians 5:21 is the premise statement for the passages that follow about how people are to get along: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Wives are to submit to husbands, husbands to wives. Mutual submission.

I agree that submission does not mean "final say." If that were the case, then the "submit" in Ephesians 5:21 must mean something else - for surely we are not required to always let other Christians have the final say? As far as I am aware the word "submit" has the same meaning in both passages, however.

Furthermore, "final say" means the husband always gets his way. Becuase if the husband and wife don't agree, the husband gets his way, and if they do agree, he still gets his way. That is a dictatorship, in my opinion, and does not fulfill the Corinthians love chapter or the description of Christ laying down his life for the church, his bride.

I see submission related more to humility, peacefulness, being agreeable, non-combative and non-argumentativ, and putting the other before yourself as if you were their servant - not always defaulting to their wishes. Jesus never taught that.

Briseis · Aug 4, 2007

I personally wouldnt keep my name the exact same as it is now because there would be no indication in my name that I was my husbands wife. Sure there are other ways to know who is married, but I would want ppl to know just by hearing our names. Hyphenating would even do this, although I have no problem with taking his name. And also, what name would you give your children? If you give them his name its like they arent your children, and if you give them your name its like they are not his children, and you already said hyphenating your names would sound funny, so what do you do with your children?

IslandBreeze · Sep 20, 2007

Symbrinity said:
I don't want to change my identity; I don't want to lose the ethnic heritage in my name; I don't want to go through with the hassle; it's just a cultural convention; the Bible does not address the issue; it's not fair that my fiance doesn't have to do it; I feel like it impinges on my independence and free will; and, most importantly - it's not fair that I don't get a choice in the matter. I'm a grown woman, not a child who is told what to do. I'm an adult and I should be free to make my own decisions, and not even need any reasons to do so.

What stands out the most to me is the amount of "mys" and "Is" in your original post. That's not what marriage is about us. It's about "we" and "us", and if you aren't willing to take on that mindset, perhaps you aren't quite ready for marriage. If changing your name is that big of a deal to you, what will happen when he wants to spank your child and you don't want to, or one of you needs to move across the country for your job? Talk about infringing on independence and free will...As far as things not being "fair," marriage isn't about fairness and winning the "fair" battle. There's a lot of give and take, and there will be down the road. If you aren't willing to give up your name, what else will you hold back from giving up? Eventually these tiny rebellions could turn into larger rebellions and could possibly lead to the end of the marriage...at only 25, I've seen it happen too often to friends who don't want to give in and want to fight every battle to win. I would urge you to take a step back and pray about what's really bothering you and come to terms with your decision.

Atlantians · Sep 20, 2007

Biblically the Wife belongs to the Husband. She is his in every regard and respect.
Men have always liked this fact.

But men forget that the Bible also instructs us that the Husband belongs to the Wife. He is hers in every regard and respect.

So lets not quivel over the possessive language, as it is accurate.
I will be my Wife's Husband, and She will be my Wife.

The changing of names is a symbol of joining families and becoming one.

The patriarchal tradition has the Wife change her name to the husbands.
That isn't wrong. It is tradition.

I think it would be cool to learn the meanings of both last names and make a new one totally by combining the meanings and finding a cool sounding synonym.

But thats just me.

Or just have the one with the cooler name be the name giver.

IE: If the Guys name is Wigglesworth, and the Girls name is Valiance... whose name do you want to give the children?

ArcherOfEndor · Nov 12, 2007

I totally get what you mean. I don't want to change my last name if I ever get married..But then I don't ever plan (Or want to) on getting married so I guess that's irrelevant. I do like the idea of combining your surnames though - plus that goes with the whole Biblical, two become one thing.

Zeo · Nov 13, 2007

Wow. Drive by comment:

This is actually kind of a current issue for me, too. We're debating whose name we want to take, but happily I don't think it's quite the situation that you (the OP) are dealing with. I think I always just assumed I would take my husband's name, but now that it comes down to it, it's different. I like my name; I'm not entirely sure I want to give it up. But, I also feel strongly that we should carry the same name, and I really think hyphenating (any name) is silly and tacky. We haven't decided which of our names to take, but I'm happy to say that we have the freedom to express our feelings on the matter without one of us feeling oppressed and the other feeling it should be "my way or the highway." That brings me to the next point...

I respect other people's beliefs and opinions, but some of what I read (regarding the larger issue of submitting to your husbands) made my blood boil. Choosing a name should not be about "dominance," or who, Biblically speaking, has the right to lead and dominate. If I felt I wasn't being respected and allowed to make decisions equally in my relationship, I wouldn't want to be a part of it. I would hope my partner would feel the same way (I'm speaking hypothetically here, because my relationship functions in just such a positive way). The idea of patriarchy (and we're speaking strictly of male humans dominating female humans) benefits men, so of course men would argue that patriarchy is traditional and should be respected. Slavery is also a "tradition;" some traditions benefit from being examined and changed.

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