• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Subjectivity, Objectivity, Signs, Gremlins (what?)

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How do you explain the concept of "objective reality" when it is through our subjectivity that the phrase has its existence? I can understand subjectivity; I am up to my neck in it. But how can I understand "objectivity" when it means outside of the subjective, seeing how the subjective is all that I have?

The heart of the problem is that, while I can believe that objectivity exists, I cannot explain it -- thus I cannot understand it; I can only point, like a child struck with a feeling he cannot explain, and say "there", and hope you understand what I mean -- that you see the same sky that I do. I can accept that there is a "something" -- "something" here being a symbolic way of pointing my finger in the direction of "beyond" reality as I know it under the auspices of my consciousness -- that is the ground on which our consciousness rests; but, being limited to my consciousness, I cannot define this "something", this "beyond", without having it colored by my subjective experience. Another way of saying it is that I don't think this "beyond" can properly be named; for to be named is thus to be limited to -- within the subjective. I think it is impossible to conclude via reason that an "objective world", as antithetical to a "subjective world", exists. It is intuitive, and necessarily so. A person could perhaps very easily come along and say that there is no "something", no "beyond", that thus all conscious experience is, and nothing more; and there would be no way for us to shoot him down. 'Cept with bullets, and that's sadly illegal.

"An objective world exists" -- to me that seems nonsensical. Existence is a projection of our consciousness, of our establishing the world via signs (which is essentially what consciousness is), and thus is only understood subjectively. Exist -- from exsistere: "to come forth, to be made manifest".

Well?

As a sidenote for you youngsters out there, this debate is going on at the "Existentialism" group on facebook.com -- if you're interested.
 

Danhalen

Healing
Feb 13, 2005
8,098
471
51
Ohio
✟33,099.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I tend to agree, but I do believe "an objective world exists" has merit as an axiom. If it were not for this axiom, my perception would be all that matters. In order for me to cohabitate this world with you, I need to make room for your subjective experience of our objective world.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Indeed, I think understanding objectivity as an axiom is the best way of describing it; a more correct way of saying this would be: I think understanding "objectivity" as an axiom is the best way of describing "it". The idea is that we cannot explain nor prove that something "beyond" our subjectivity exists, thus giving our subjectivity its resting place. Thus we have no weapons against the brute subjectivists; we rely on faith -- or put secularly, we hold something pragmatically, without the flashlight of pure reason, because it makes our world tolerable; we follow our intuition in holding anything else to be absurd.
 
Upvote 0
E

exploring

Guest
There must be a difference between not being able to prove objectivity and not being able to imagine it. I'd say that i intuitively believe in an objective world which, on reflection, i cannot certainly say exists. My point is that you said originally that objectivity could not be understood. Surely it is possible to imagine a world where there is something beyond our perceptions, but not possible to prove it.
 
Upvote 0

elman

elman
Dec 19, 2003
28,949
451
85
Texas
✟54,197.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
It is our perception of reality that is subjective, not the reality itself.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
exploring said:
Surely it is possible to imagine a world where there is something beyond our perceptions, but not possible to prove it.

I don't think you can imagine it literally; perhaps an analogy would work -- but my reason says it cannot, for even the things within the analogy are within consciousness. It would be like asking a man to see something that goes beyond sight, but only using things relevant to sight -- colors, shapes, etc. Objectivity must be understood intuitively, and because it is intuitive by no means proves its factuality; it's the self's pragmatic means of grasping with reality -- that is, that which is related to subjectivity -- which I think is a necessary system of consciousness: making sense of things.
 
Upvote 0

kangitanka

Regular Member
Jul 2, 2006
281
16
✟23,009.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
elman said:
It is our perception of reality that is subjective, not the reality itself.
Of course.
But since you experience objective reality through your subjective perceptions (among other biases we all have) actually experiencing objective reality is pretty much impossible.
 
Upvote 0

elman

elman
Dec 19, 2003
28,949
451
85
Texas
✟54,197.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
muffler dragon said:
The circularity comes from the fact that this (your statement) is a SUBJECTIVE statement (just as mine is). Therefore, who can really know?
I pretty well know my perception is flawed. Knowing that means I know that what I perveive is acturally different than the way I percieve it.
 
Upvote 0

elman

elman
Dec 19, 2003
28,949
451
85
Texas
✟54,197.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
kangitanka said:
Of course.
But since you experience objective reality through your subjective perceptions (among other biases we all have) actually experiencing objective reality is pretty much impossible.
I think I agree. I don't think we are capable of experiencing objective reality. That does not mean it does not exist nor is it evidence it does not exist. Perhaps the closest we can get to that experience is in concepts, such as mathematics.
 
Upvote 0

muffler dragon

Ineffable
Apr 7, 2004
7,320
382
50
✟31,896.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
elman said:
I pretty well know my perception is flawed. Knowing that means I know that what I perveive is acturally different than the way I percieve it.

But I would take it even further:

How can you KNOW that your perception is flawed? If you can't perceive/understand/know the plumb line; then there's no way to determine the validity of your perception.

That's what I was meaning about the circularity.
 
Upvote 0

kangitanka

Regular Member
Jul 2, 2006
281
16
✟23,009.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
elman said:
I think I agree. I don't think we are capable of experiencing objective reality. That does not mean it does not exist nor is it evidence it does not exist. Perhaps the closest we can get to that experience is in concepts, such as mathematics.
I think that you, I and the OP may be in agreement
 
Upvote 0

elman

elman
Dec 19, 2003
28,949
451
85
Texas
✟54,197.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
One of the ways I know is by having made mistakes. Another reason I know is because I know what I see is made of atoms which I cannot see, therefore what I see is not really as I see it. Thus there is a way of determining the validity of the fact that my perception is flawed.
 
Upvote 0