subjective morality

[Volos]

Originally posted by : Cybermaxx12

If someone needed a blanket, I gave it to them and they got smallpox from it was I wrong? If I knew it had small pox on it of coarse it is. If I knew and told them and they took it anyway I did nothing wrong.

Yes it is wrong even if you told them about it. True, they chose to take a disease infested blanket but you allowed them to.


The consequence is that many people will die because of your action and yoru decision.

In case you did not realize it the example of providing people with balnkest infected with small pox is taken form American history. And no the people being given the infected blankest were nto told that they would kill thousands and destroy their culture. But then again these people were not Christians so perhapse in yoru view those who gave them the blankets were justified and simply yoru gods right to have them killed.

If the Nazis ask you where the Jewish people are dont tell them but dont lie to them.

Lying by omission is still lying

you always use the same set of rules God has given us just use them correctly and in a moral dilemma pray instead of reason. Rely on God and he will show you the right way out whether it be hard or easy he will show you, in many different ways.

I happily pray to the goddess for guidance but the answer is always the same: You have a mind, make your own decisions.





[/quote] If someone hits me turn the other cheek if someone shoots me pray for them. Did Jesus attack his attackers in self-defence. It is a hard law to fallow but it is a law. [/quote] If someone hits me I report such to the police. If someone shoots at me, first I dive for cover then I also call the police.

As for in war, thou shalt not kill. God orderd the Isrealites to kill that is his justice. Those people would not repent and it was Gods right to take their lives.

If your god is petty, bloodthirsty or evil enough to want someone dead he can kill them himself.

You can't judge what is moral by its consiquence. Thats just what benefits you more which isnt moral its selfish.

Where in the world did you get the strange notion that looking at the consequences of ones actions is somehow selfish?



You seems to have made the assumption that somehow non-Christians cannot or do not act in the best interest of others.



The consequences of our actions are all we have to judge by. There are no rules or regulations that cover all situations. Every moral dilemma is unique to the person experiencing it. It is one thing to say killing another person is generally wrong but that is not the case in all situations. It is one thing to say it is better to be honest but there are times when this is not true. How do we judge what is and what is not the best way to act? The only thing we can look at is the consequences of our actions.

You determine what is right and wrong from the bible which gives unquestionable answers to those who belive in it. I meant you cant say lying to my parents about my test is ok. You are just saying that for your own benefit.

And once again you have assumed that anyone who does not follow your particular brand of religion is exclusively seeking self gratification.

Maybe instead of assuming the motivations of others you should look at the actions of the individual and the situations they found themselves in.



A moral dilemma is a difficult decision because there may not be a good or bad choice (if there is a good and a bad choice then the decisions are easy) moral dilemmas happen when there is not a good alternative and there is no easy way out.



Why would you assume lying about something as inconsequential as a test be important enough to qualify as a moral dilemma. The very fact that there is a good alternative and a bad alternative makes this something other than a dilemma.

Lets say your an Iraqi civilian and your walking on the street and see an American soldier laying on the ground dying. You take the soldier in and nurse him to health, even though you know if someone radicaly opposed to the Americans find out you and your family could die. You know its right and pleasing to the God of Abraham regardless of the negative or positive consiquences.

Somehow I doubt the average citizen of Iraq is concerned with the god of Abraham. But that is really beside the point.



Is not deciding what actions are good and what actions not good based upon what you believe your patron deity would want an indication that you are acting not because it is good but to gain the favor of that deity? Are you not then guilty of acting in a selfish manner?

So it needs to be in our faith, that we step blindly toward God and let him hold us up. You can't base a moral standerd on the culture your in because the culture ultimatly is made up of men.

Religion like culture is also a creation of humans.

Your only moral standerd should be on Gods standerd. You can't dream of living up to this perfectly or always keeping the right standerd but be sure that God will forgive you and set you on the right track

And which god’s standard? There are many.

 

[cybermaxx12]

Who said giving someone a blanket had anything to do with the right to kill them. By telling them it had small pox and offering it to them the choice rested squarly on their shoulders.

If I were to make all of my decisions on my own, even without council of others. I would make some very stupid choices that could of been avoided. Maybe you don't get answere from your "goddess" but I do from God and Godly men

Of coarse you report it to the police.

My God is loving caring and good enough to keep us alive when it would be just for him to kill us all.

I have made no assumption like that, in many cases non-christians make better choices than christians. To make a decision you cant just look at the consiquence if your a christian. If your a christian you have to look at your choices and choose the right one. if your a non-christian you can do the same thing also. If I join a scam like enron because the benefits easily out weigh the negative aspects I've made a decision based on the consiqences. But I have done something wrong. I'm cheating people out of lots of their money.

And once again your assuming that I'm assuming. Those who are seeking self gratification are indivisuals not a people. But choosing things by their consiquence is usualy beneficial toward you. And its not like christians don't do it. when we do it, its for self benefit. Its not a fact about being a christian or non christian its a fact about human nature. I'm not saying their is a good alternetive or a bad alternetive I'm saying their is a good choice whether it is easy or clear.

How do you suppose I could gain favor of God. I cant impress him. Any right choice I make he's already made but with a better heart. Trying to please God is like showing a world class athelete you can walk. God is not interiested in our merit. If I make a choice that is right. God is glad that I made the right choice, but it's no more than is required of me.

Humans are a creation of God.

The standerd in the Bible. There is only one Bible (though about 1000000000000 translations aka King James, NIV....)

 

[Outspoken]

Is stealing a loaf of bread from a wealthy merchant so that your family can live wrong?

Is giving someone a blanket contaminated with smallpox right?

Yes, stealing is always wrong, but its equally wrong to not give bread to someone who is starving. As for the blanket, nope, the US was wrong when it did that. You need to remember, two wrongs NEVER make a right in any case.

 

[tcampen]

Right and wrong is both objective and subjective, depending on what exactly you're talking about. Rape is always wrong, for example, and I don't see any way to claim "it's wrong for you, but not for me." Not every determination is so easy, however. I happen to think some missionary activities are morally wrong, especially when efforts for religious conversion takes place simultaneously with providing live saving food or medicine. I'm sure others in these forums find such activities virtuous.

When determining whether a question of morality is objective or subjective, I think it is necessary to look at the standard you're using. Is the standard objective? The concept of God has so many variations, even among those who profess to be of the same faith, that while an individual may claim God's standard to be objective, there appears little evidence of such as shown by the great variations of religious belief in the world. It simply isn't enough to claim "My idea of God is the right one, and everyone who disagrees is just wrong." Gee, we can all do that.

 

[Pooty]

Subjective completely. NOTHING is natually right or wrong, all things are neutral.

Some people see killing as wrong, however I do not. I could care less, I don't see it as right, HOWEVER I do not believe it is wrong.

Let's get a little deeper...

There ARE objective right and wrongs but NOT in the sense of perceptionary things. 1+1=2 is right, 1+1=3 is wrong. No matter what, if you add one thing to another one thing you get two.

However, this is where the objectivity ends. The 'good and bad' subjectivity is something created by the mind. It's a way of determining what you like and what you don't.

Say a child sees it's mother killed, the child will not like that, since the mother nurtured it and loved it. So the child will attribute that to wrong/bad. Say that chid's mother give it a blanket. The child is happy that it got a blanket, and so then attributes giving to right/good.

However, all of those perceptions are based on human feelings, and since human feelings are not singular there are many different versions of the perception.

Now, who's right? Most if not all of the people in this world will say the perception that agrees with theirs is right. It's natural. But there's another problem. Neither the person who dissagees nor the person who agrees is correct.

If you take away the human perception you get just actions, void of right or wrong. Killing is just a thing, raping is just a thing, giving is just a thing.

Even IF there is a god dictating right and wrong, he is not correct. He is simply using his perception of reality. Things are still neutral.

So, it's very simple. Things are not naturally right or wrong, and cannot be. And the perception of each thing is NOT singular either. There is an uncountable amount of difference. Regardless of who's making the perception, it is still a perception.

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by : cybermaxx

Who said giving someone a blanket had anything to do with the right to kill them. By telling them it had small pox and offering it to them the choice rested squarly on their shoulders.

Currently in Germany there is a trial going on where a man met another person on the internet who agreed to meet, be killed and eaten by this man. By your reasoning because this persona chose to be killed and eaten the man in question did nothing wrong because, as you say, the choice rested firmly on their shoulders.

If I were to make all of my decisions on my own, even without council of others. I would make some very stupid choices that could of been avoided. Maybe you don't get answere from your "goddess" but I do from God and Godly men

On the contrary I do get answers. I recognize that you believe that no one outside of your particular religion can have a personal relationship with the Divine but that is simply no the case.

My God is loving caring and good enough to keep us alive when it would be just for him to kill us all.

one has to wnonder about a deity whos followers continually claim he is perfect and the sole creator of us yet they also claim he is somehow either horrified or disguisted by his creation.

I have made no assumption like that, in many cases non-christians make better choices than christians. To make a decision you cant just look at the consiquence if your a christian. If your a christian you have to look at your choices and choose the right one. if your a non-christian you can do the same thing also. If I join a scam like enron because the benefits easily out weigh the negative aspects I've made a decision based on the consiqences. But I have done something wrong. I'm cheating people out of lots of their money.

No you didn’t make a decision to join a scam based on the consequences, you made a decision to join a scam based on greed. Looking at the consequences means looking at how your actions and inactions will affect everyone.



Several thousand years ago a bunch of people made up a bunch of rules and claimed they were divinely inspired. There are a lot of these rules running around, some contradict others, many contradict themselves. Moral codes that claim to be true based on authority have two problems. The first being in deciding just what rules or what set of rules do we follow. The second being that the list of rules do not cover all situations. The only thing we can reliably do is look at the consequences of our actions and try our best.

And once again your assuming that I'm assuming. Those who are seeking self gratification are indivisuals not a people. But choosing things by their consiquence is usualy beneficial toward you. And its not like christians don't do it. when we do it, its for self benefit. Its not a fact about being a christian or non christian its a fact about human nature. I'm not saying their is a good alternetive or a bad alternetive I'm saying their is a good choice whether it is easy or clear.

Once again you are attempting to say that anyone who bases ethical decision and/or moral dilemmas based on the consequences of their choices is in effect acting only in their own interest. I fail to see where you came up with that idea.



Making such choices based on their consequence means that more often than not I am acting in the best interest of others rather than in my own best interest. This is not to say my own self interest does not figure into any and all decisions but it is not my first or only concern. Were this the case I would not be working in the job I am (If I were consumed with my own self interest I would be working where I would make more money, where there was less stress, or where I would be better appreciated. Why do I stay at my job? Because I have the opportunity to help people who need it, people who aren’t likely to get help elsewhere.

How do you suppose I could gain favor of God. I cant impress him. Any right choice I make he's already made but with a better heart. Trying to please God is like showing a world class athelete you can walk. God is not interiested in our merit. If I make a choice that is right. God is glad that I made the right choice, but it's no more than is required of me.

if your god is such a great and wonderful diety why do you feel you have to gain his favor?

Humans are a creation of God.

And the Goddess is the mother of all things. As just one of her children we are no better and no worse than any other creature or object in the universe. We are not any more or any less special than anything else here. Her love is unconditional, no matter what ethical decisions we make.

 

[cybermaxx12]

Your right, Both parties were wrong (in the case in Germany) and if I think about it their wrong in the small pox thing two, the US not the people who took the blanket (if they didnt know). See I can admit I was wrong.

What religion do you belive in? Arguing about whether your "Deity" talks to you or not or mine because its like a man telling another man how good fish tastes when the other man has never even heard of fish. (bad analogy maybe but you get the idea)

God is not horrified or discusted by us, I never said (and hope) never implied that. If you make a log cabin, is it not also your right to destroy it. (we do not make children children are made through us" If you were not going to say "according to you I can kill my children because I made them ( The law of conservation of energy or something). But thats not the point the point is God would be just to kill us and by not doing so he is being merciful.

Consiuences are good and bad. (If the scam involves getting lots of money) You join in on it because your greedy yes, but posibly getting lots of money is also a consiquence like posibly getting caught. In making a decision you need to look at whether it is right or wrong (you also need to know whats right and wrong. What I think is wrong might be right. And what I thing is right might be wrong. But I'm sure others will always be their to correct me and my the Spirit will convict me). If by a set of rules you mean the Bible than you are wrong. Sure the Bible may have been written a couple of thousand years ago, but its code of right and wrong and other stuff like that have always existed.

I never said people acting in light of only consiquences are only acting in their best intrest. If I implied that I didnt mean to but I dont think I did. Thats a great thing you have a job where you can help people. The oppertunity to help people is a great thing and where you can do that for a job is awesome. But I still never said people who act on consiquences only act for themselves. That is a great way of choosing but not the right way of choosing. Now I know you don't see some things from a christian point of view so this may sound stupid. You must choose things based on right and wrong. It may not seem logical or beneficial to you or those effecting but it is moral and just. And in the Bible you find a perfect guidline. Though I don't understand some of it, I belive it because if I had to understand something to belive it I'd belive nothing.

I just tried to say I can't and don't need to gain his favor. He doesnt love one person more that he loves others. FYI he loves Hittler just as much as John the Baptist.

His love is unconditional nomatter what decicion we make. What do you mean we are not any more or less special than anything in the universe. Doesnt your "Goddess" think your more special than the chair your sitting on or the bird you ate for dinner. God loves us (inclouding you) the same (which is an incomprehendable *spelling ?* amount FYI infinate). His love for us never ends even in hell. God made us to have a relationship with him, we are more special to him than the birds of the air or the beasts of the field.

Have a great day

 

[Volos]

Origianlly posted by : Cybermaxx12

What religion do you belive in? Arguing about whether your "Deity" talks to you or not or mine because its like a man telling another man how good fish tastes when the other man has never even heard of fish. (bad analogy maybe but you get the idea)

[/quote] The small globe next to my name will reval tha I am a Pagan.



If you wish to argue about Deities and who talks to whom I will immediately agree that all deities talk to those who would care to listen. If in the future you wish to avoid arguing with people about their relationship with what ever deities they happen to believe in you would do well to avoid phrases such as “ Maybe you don't get answere from your "goddess" but I do from God and Godly men.” When you phrase things like this you diminish and demean other people’s religion just the same as I talked about your “belief” and your “god.”

God is not horrified or discusted by us, I never said (and hope) never implied that. If you make a log cabin, is it not also your right to destroy it. (we do not make children children are made through us" If you were not going to say "according to you I can kill my children because I made them ( The law of conservation of energy or something). But thats not the point the point is God would be just to kill us and by not doing so he is being merciful.

The deistic world view classes with the panenthiesitic world view. The universe is not simply a created object, it is not a watch or a clay pot or even a log cabin. I do not and cannot believe in a universe created ex nihlo (out of nothing) the physical Universe is a dimension of the Divine allowing the Divine to be both immanent and transcendent. We are not created objects, we are part of the Divine and as such we (and everything else) are sacred.



You have a very sick and twisted sense of what is good and merciful.

Consiuences are good and bad. (If the scam involves getting lots of money) You join in on it because your greedy yes, but posibly getting lots of money is also a consiquence like posibly getting caught. In making a decision you need to look at whether it is right or wrong (you also need to know whats right and wrong. What I think is wrong might be right. And what I thing is right might be wrong. But I'm sure others will always be their to correct me and my the Spirit will convict me). If by a set of rules you mean the Bible than you are wrong. Sure the Bible may have been written a couple of thousand years ago, but its code of right and wrong and other stuff like that have always existed.

Yes there are good consequences and bad consequences and that is what we look at when we face a moral dilemma.



Rules of thumb have certainly existed for a long time but that does not mean they are reflective of what is good and what is not good.



Situation ethics means that decision-making should be based upon the circumstances of a particular situation, and not upon fixed law or code of rules. Right and wrong are not absolutes but have meaning only as far as the unique ethical situation the individual finds themselves in. Each situation is so different from every other situation that it is questionable whether a rule which applies to one situation can be applied to all situations like it, since the others may not really be like it. The only absolute is Love. And not love of the self but rather love of everything. Decisions need to be based on genuine concern for the well being of others and the self. Love or genuine concern for the well being of others should be the motive behind every decision. Justice is not in the letter of the Law, it is in the distribution of Love.



All moral laws rules, principles, ideals and norms, are contingent, they only are valid if they happen to aid in the individual acting with genuine concern and love in moral dilemmas.

I never said people acting in light of only consiquences are only acting in their best intrest. If I implied that I didnt mean to but I dont think I did. Thats a great thing you have a job where you can help people. The oppertunity to help people is a great thing and where you can do that for a job is awesome. But I still never said people who act on consiquences only act for themselves.

That is a great way of choosing but not the right way of choosing. Now I know you don't see some things from a christian point of view so this may sound stupid. You must choose things based on right and wrong. It may not seem logical or beneficial to you or those effecting but it is moral and just. And in the Bible you find a perfect guidline. Though I don't understand some of it, I belive it because if I had to understand something to belive it I'd belive nothing.

the bible is a lot of things but a perfect guidelien for etics it is not. If I wer to beelive that I would have to murder every homosexual or every person of a different religion that I happen to meet. Considering that I am a gay Pagan I would have to start by murdering myself.



To more seriously address your point:



Why MUST I choose things based on right and wrong?

Whose authority do I use to decide what is right and wrong?

I just tried to say I can't and don't need to gain his favor. He doesnt love one person more that he loves others. FYI he loves Hittler just as much as John the Baptist.

His love is unconditional nomatter what decicion we make.

If he loves them equally and if your God’s love is unconditional are they then both in heaven?

What do you mean we are not any more or less special than anything in the universe. Doesnt your "Goddess" think your more special than the chair your sitting on or the bird you ate for dinner.

Pagans do not belive in special creation. Human beings are not separate from or above nature. We are not in charge of or have domian over nature. I am no better than the cat sitting on my computer monitor. I am no worse either. Why do you feel the need to believe yourself special?

 

[cybermaxx12]

Good point, I'll try to show more respect toward others religion or belifs.

Now you used some terms their that I do not understand but if you are part of the divine why do you die.

Rule of Thumb? I agree with you on having to love. To love everyone is very important. As in First Corinthians it says

In this life we have three lasting qualities-faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Now I would argue to say you must make all choices based on right and wrong and (I think) what your saying is that their is no set code. That for every rule their are situations that you would have to make a situation. What about doing wrong (sinning) isnt it always bad to do wrong and alwasy good to do right?

Christians are never called to kill homosexuals or people of other religions. Like I said before we are called to love others in Christ, you no less than me. I don't hate homosexuals or people of other religions. The bible says both of those are wrong but killing a person of another religion is just as wrong. Though you have to look at the christian like you have to look at the person, indivisually. A pastor somewhere up north in the USA who claimed to be a christian promoted and participated in dragging homosexuals around a dirt road tied to the back of a truck. No matter what religion or belifs you have you must agree thats wrong.

I guess I can't say you must choose by right or wrong because your not a christian. But I can say to you that I belive that it is better and more ethical.

Tell you the truth I could'nt say. Based on what I know about Hittler and what he did I would guess he is in Hell. But he could have truly repented of his sins before he died and accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. I can tell you that I'm going to hevean. God lets those into hevean that repent of their sins and claim him as their lord and savior. Truly not just saying the words for insurence.

Because God created us special. He created us to talk, to think, but most importantly to have a relationship with him. God doesnt talk to fish. In Jonah he commands a fish just as he does the whether. He gave us free choice. He also gave us dominion over the Earth. He gave us the athority to live off of animals we kill and fish we catch and plants we grow. We are special, God made us in his image.

 

[tiuliucci]

The problem here is terms. Subjective verses objective thought is human thought. When you say that morality is subjective, you are referring to the human judgement of right and wrong. Every person has a different view of what is right and wrong.

The only objective judgement of morality is done by God. God is the only being that can judge right from wrong without a clouded view. God does not use hermenuetics to judge right from wrong. Hermenuetics are the basic components of our lives up to the point that we make a judgement call on any issue. The components include but are not limited to such things as race, social status, upbringing, experiences, predjudices, etcetera.

Take care,
Troy

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by : cybermaxx12

Good point, I'll try to show more respect toward others religion or belifs.

Good.

Now you used some terms their that I do not understand but if you are part of the divine why do you die.

Are you suggesting that Christians are the only ones who believe in the survival of the soul following death?



I am not my body. When this body dies it does not cease to exist but rather is returned to nature to (hopefully) be recycled.

Now I would argue to say you must make all choices based on right and wrong and (I think) what your saying is that their is no set code. That for every rule their are situations that you would have to make a situation. What about doing wrong (sinning) isnt it always bad to do wrong and alwasy good to do right?

Remember I am a Pagan and as a Pagan sin is an foreign concept. Pagan’s can’t sin, there are not divinely inspired laws or codes to disregard.



You cannot define right and wrong outside of the unique ethical situations they spring from. Is killing another person ALWAYS wrong? I can’t say that it is always wrong because I can think of situations where killing another person (while not enjoyable) is the right thing to do.

Christians are never called to kill homosexuals or people of other religions. Like I said before we are called to love others in Christ, you no less than me. I don't hate homosexuals or people of other religions. The bible says both of those are wrong but killing a person of another religion is just as wrong. Though you have to look at the christian like you have to look at the person, indivisually. A pastor somewhere up north in the USA who claimed to be a christian promoted and participated in dragging homosexuals around a dirt road tied to the back of a truck. No matter what religion or belifs you have you must agree thats wrong.

I am sure that there are those much better equipped than I am to pull out bible verses.



Was not this particular Christian pastor following Leviticus 20:13:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."



If the law is the law how is this immoral?



The “they shall be put to death” part sounds like an order to kill to me.

I guess I can't say you must choose by right or wrong because your not a christian. But I can say to you that I belive that it is better and more ethical.

You are correct we both do agree it is preferable to be ethical. What we do not agree on is how do we decide what is and what is not ethical. You are saying what is ethical is encoded as a set of rules in a text and it is our job to know this text and these rules. I am saying that what is ethical is uniquely dependant upon the situation and therefore what is ethical is changeable depending on those situations so it futile to try to encode any rules because they will always be lacking.

Tell you the truth I could'nt say. Based on what I know about Hittler and what he did I would guess he is in Hell. But he could have truly repented of his sins before he died and accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. I can tell you that I'm going to hevean. God lets those into hevean that repent of their sins and claim him as their lord and savior. Truly not just saying the words for insurence.

You have hit upon a very important problem for religious pluralism. But this is a topic for a different thread

Because God created us special. He created us to talk, to think, but most importantly to have a relationship with him. God doesnt talk to fish. In Jonah he commands a fish just as he does the whether. He gave us free choice. He also gave us dominion over the Earth. He gave us the athority to live off of animals we kill and fish we catch and plants we grow. We are special, God made us in his image.

that is your belief, not mine. As a Pagan I cannot see myself as being above nature or as a supernatural being.

 

[cybermaxx12]

When your refering to Lev. 20:13 that was before Jesus died on the cross. Now the only sin that wont be forgiven is refusing to repent. What it said in Lev. God was saying to the Isreaites, who had knowledge of him.

I have never found a situation where they have been lacking. Their are situations that are above my head that others have to explain what the Bible says to me, but I've never found it lacking. I've found it to be a perfect guide.



I guess on most points we can agree to disagree. I am firmly and fastly set in my belifs and it seems you are to. So neither of us will agree with eachother unless we forsake our religion.