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Stupid In America

Wolseley

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I guess this pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

Stupid In America | Fox News

Let's get our priorities straight here, people! Education has nothing to do with educating children! It has to do with union representation!

No wonder our schools are so utterly dismal.
 

abysmul

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We spend and we spend and we spend. Yet the headlines have been full of union thuggery (talk to people who have actually been working around the Wisconsin union thugs during their "protests"), and entire school systems cheating tests scores to make the teachers look great (when they are disgusting failures).

At least in this area of the country... Talk to parents who work for a living that drop their kids off at school (parking lot for teachers more than 1/2 empty) and then talk to the parents that pick their children up in the afternoon as the kids are shoved aside by teachers rushing out the door after their long 6 hour day.

Odd how the schools get more and more and more money, yet parent organizations buy room supplies, air conditioners, sports equipment, choir robes, and more.

Heck, here in WVa the average teacher salary is higher than the state median income. So, we pay them more than we make ourselves... which is all fine and dandy until you hear them complaining about how bad they have it. (we won't get into the whole benefit package thing... vacation, holidays, insurance, retirement, etc...)
 
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FaithLikeARock

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I love when we get bored of say "Democrats ruin everything" so we move on to the Unions.

You do realize unions came about in this country because employers were taking laborers and paying them very small wages, not treating them with respect, not giving them really any adequete treatment - union were a method of fighting that. AND IT WORKED. The idea that unions somehow control everything is a claim I have never, I repeat, NEVER seen supported. I know several teachers and several union members and the union exists FOR their members, so if you have a problem with the way things are run, don't blame the union, blame the members.

That said, I'm sick of people complaining about teachers and blaming unions and Democrats, when it is NOT the fault of our teachers - go into a classroom and you will see 40 kids in a single room attempting to learn with outdated textbooks, very minimal technology, and outside of that classroom few support services. The problem is the curriculum (set by a district, not the teachers), the support services (set by the district and to an extent the state) and the technology (budget issue) in most of our schools are outdated, poorly resourced and generally doesn't prepare kids for anything.

We still base MOST of our educational system, even in elementary school, on a visual/audial learning system, when especially young kids typically learn with visual/kinesthetic learning system best. This isn't even a new development - kids learn best when they're doing, most adults learn best this way too. It's the way we're portraying information and the technology we're using that's doing us in.

Also, "school funding is through the roof" - what is their frame of reference for this, because in California it's been cut consistently for the past three years (K-12, community colleges, and state colleges). But then, it's an opinion piece and this guy probably doesn't fact check.

The fact of the matter is, we used to have free market schooling. And even back in the days where most people didn't need an education to do okay it could still be devastating because ONLY the rich and prestigious were let in - ONLY. You either had a lot of money or were really well known or preferably both.

Now it would be even WORSE because for the majority of jobs you need a college degree, the career field is so wide, and if private colleges have taught us anything, they don't follow the rules of supply and demand - they follow the rules of "we can charge literally whatever we want because people will still attend" even though with the exception of Ivy League colleges, no special credence is given to a private school as opposed to a UC (I've talked to several counselors and they all say, it's one of the last things on the list unless it's an Ivy League - they're much more concerned with your grades, your leadership experience, your extracurriculars, etc.)

So if you want to go ahead and try and recreate the 1700's only we have absolutely no one working, you go ahead and try. People talk about shutting down state colleges so casually but they aren't actually THINKING. There are CONSEQUENCES to actions, and the consequences to shutting down public schooling in the country and replacing it with free market schooling would be devastating because history has already demonstrated that if schools know they don't need to be cheap to still make more than enough profit - which brings me to a final point.

How can you complain about unions and overpaid teachers, and then in the same breath, suggest we move to a system that effectively makes all of our schools for profit? You honestly don't see the hypocrisy in that? Private schools are notorious for being, well, businesses - if enough of their "customers" (i.e. parents) asked, they would teach that the world is flat and pigs can fly - they don't care about actually teaching they care about their money and the thousands being poured in by the parents who can therefore design the curriculum whether it's factual or not. THAT is the real reason Republicans push for complete privatization - because it's much easier to force schools to teach what you want when they're private and all you have to do is throw money at them. As usual they claim FACTS are "liberal bias" and then offer a "solution" that essentially just lets them stick in their bias.

Well no, I'm sick of hearing about it. Realistically it's not going to happen since the majority of this country, even children of Republicans, have attended a public educational institution - the day you could get anything close to this implemented is the day hell freezes over.
 
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Wolseley

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Belk

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Less than in Europe where the unions flourish and the kids learn.

Why is America always behind?


Because of an inherent anti-intellectual bias coupled with poor parent interaction? I am sure that a push to standardize doesn't help. Teaching strikes me as something that needs to be more individualized.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Because of an inherent anti-intellectual bias coupled with poor parent interaction? I am sure that a push to standardize doesn't help. Teaching strikes me as something that needs to be more individualized.

Given how much are asked of American teachers, it is a sad state. I think parents are mostly to blame, though it is a societal problem, not an individual one.
 
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Belk

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Given how much are asked of American teachers, it is a sad state. I think parents are mostly to blame, though it is a societal problem, not an individual one.


Parents do share some of the blame, though I do not think all. Americans have a bad habit of trying to get everything as cheaply as possible and the results show.
 
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lordbt

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Beats me. How can public school be a monopoly when there are 30000 private schools for the same school levels?
But you are not compelled by law to purchase the product of those private institutions the way you are compelled by law to fund the public school system whether you want, need or use their particular product. Are public schools a monopoly by strict definition? Probably not, but I wonder if you would be so charitable towards a private firm that had the ability to treat you the way the public school system does.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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But you are not compelled by law to purchase the product of those private institutions the way you are compelled by law to fund the public school system whether you want, need or use their particular product. Are public schools a monopoly by strict definition? Probably not, but I wonder if you would be so charitable towards a private firm that had the ability to treat you the way the public school system does.

Public education was proscribed by the Founding Fathers...

"By that part of our plan which prescribes the selection of the youths of genius from among the classes of the poor, we hope to avail the state of those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as the rich, but which perish without use, if not sought for and cultivated."

The Societal contract proscribed education for the benefit of the state
 
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Wolseley

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But they work elsewhere...

It would rather seem that America is the bane of a normal functioning society.

If America was a normal functioning society, we wouldn't butcher our infant children and allow sexual perverts to "marry". We wouldn't allow our politicians to live like gilded kings while honest people working for minimum wage try to figure out whether to pay the electric bill, purchase prescription medications, or buy enough food for their kids for another month. We wouldn't idolize people like Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton while sneering at Christians who find that sort of behavior offensive. We wouldn't be conducting stupid wars in places we have no damned business being in the first place while our own economy sinks into a tar pit of economic oblivion.

America is not anything even close to being a "normal, functioning society", and it hasn't been for a long, long time.



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HBGary

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If America was a normal functioning society, we wouldn't butcher our infant children and allow sexual perverts to "marry". We wouldn't allow our politicians to live like gilded kings while honest people working for minimum wage try to figure out whether to pay the electric bill, purchase prescription medications, or buy enough food for their kids for another month. We wouldn't idolize people like Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton while sneering at Christians who find that sort of behavior offensive. We wouldn't be conducting stupid wars in places we have no damned business being in the first place while our own economy sinks into a tar pit of economic oblivion.

America is not anything even close to being a "normal, functioning society", and it hasn't been for a long, long time.

Please tell us which country has a normal, functioning society.
 
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lordbt

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Public education was proscribed by the Founding Fathers...

"By that part of our plan which prescribes the selection of the youths of genius from among the classes of the poor, we hope to avail the state of those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as the rich, but which perish without use, if not sought for and cultivated."

The Societal contract proscribed education for the benefit of the state
Not sure why you quoted my post since that addresses what I said, not at all. In fact, your comment is neither on topic nor accurate. The Founders dealt with the Federal Government through the Constitution. You can post disjointed, unsourced and unattributed quotes and irrelevant fantasies about non-existent "Societal contracts" all you want, but if you want to post facts and deal with reality, you will have to show me where a Federal role in education is outlined in the Constitution. If you cant, then you have, as usual, no argument.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Not sure why you quoted my post since that addresses what I said, not at all. In fact, your comment is neither on topic nor accurate. The Founders dealt with the Federal Government through the Constitution. You can post disjointed, unsourced and unattributed quotes and irrelevant fantasies about non-existent "Societal contracts" all you want, but if you want to post facts and deal with reality, you will have to show me where a Federal role in education is outlined in the Constitution. If you cant, then you have, as usual, no argument.

It is from Thomas Jefferson, I assumed you would recognize it. Perhaps you are not as big a devotee of Jefferson as you would claim.
 
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lordbt

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It is from Thomas Jefferson, I assumed you would recognize it. Perhaps you are not as big a devotee of Jefferson as you would claim.
Yes, I have not quite completed committing each of his utterances to memory quite yet. But I hope to have that done soon. Now, since that is the only comment you have about my post, I will assume that you agree with it and we have nothing else to discuss. So, B-bye. :wave:
 
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