Studying Catholicism

River-Dweller · Dec 12, 2012

I have been studying Catholicism; both directly and indirectly for a few years. However, I have been seriously studying it for the past few days.

I have never been to a Catholic church. I have been to an Orthodox church and an Anglican church but that's as close as I've gotten. To be honest, I have to admit that it has partially been because of a lack of interest on my part.

I was raised Pentecostal and I would describe myself as a Calvinistic Pentecostal. If I was anything other than Pentecostal, it would probably be Anglican.

So, I was intrigued to hear that Pope Benedict XVI opened the door for dissatisfied Anglicans to become Roman Catholics.

I have several concerns with RC theology but my top concerns are as follows:

Veneration of Saints
Purgatory
Rejection of the priesthood of all believers
Icons
Required celibacy of the clergy

The celibacy issue is mitigated by the fact that married Anglican priests who convert can remain married but I don't see any way around the other issues.

There are a few issues that I agree with the RCC on. Those would include theistic evolution, their pro-marriage, pro-life, and anti-contraception stances, and I am comfortable with the perpetual virginity of Mary doctrine even though I'm not completely sold on it. And, I should add that since I am in a broad sense a Holiness Pentecostal, I believe that an episcopal form of church government is correct.

So, that is where I am essentially.

Tangible · Dec 13, 2012

Have you ever considered Lutheranism?

Then again ...

River-Dweller · Dec 13, 2012

To me Lutheranism makes too firm a break from the Catholic church. Out of the historic churches, I like the Anglican church the best, but they are in a state of flux right now.

My concern is continuity. I want to be connected to the church, historically speaking.

I have had many atheists and agnostics question Christianity because of so many denominations that have broken away from the Catholic church.

I am a monergist. I believe in the doctrines of grace. That makes it more difficult. I could never be Orthodox for that reason.

Anglicanism is the best option for me. But there are a couple of problems there.

bbbbbbb · Dec 13, 2012

I have a cousin who spent some time as a pentecostal Episcopalian. She and her husband were initially quite welcomed, but they eventually parted ways because she is ardent in her practice of speaking in tongues. If tongues is a significant part of your theology (as well as other sign gifts) I do not know of an Traditional Church that would be accomodative to that.

wordsoflife · Dec 13, 2012

Those are some good questions. Defensor Christi is the best person I have found on the forum to talk with concerning the Catholic Church. He is over on another thread right now but I'm sure when he sees this thread he will respond. May be you should PM him: http://www.christianforums.com/t7708305/

wordsoflife · Dec 13, 2012

River-Dweller said:
Veneration of Saints

I don't really see what the problem is with the Saints. Catholics look up to Saints because they are the heroes of the faith.

Tangible · Dec 13, 2012

River-Dweller said:
To me Lutheranism makes too firm a break from the Catholic church. Out of the historic churches, I like the Anglican church the best, but they are in a state of flux right now.

My concern is continuity. I want to be connected to the church, historically speaking.

I have had many atheists and agnostics question Christianity because of so many denominations that have broken away from the Catholic church.

I am a monergist. I believe in the doctrines of grace. That makes it more difficult. I could never be Orthodox for that reason.

Anglicanism is the best option for me. But there are a couple of problems there.

Like the fact that you can believe (or reject) just about anything and still fall within the scope of Anglicanism?

And two things for the record, A. what Lutherans believe, teach and confess was not new, but can be demonstrated to have been believed and taught in the Church from the earliest times, and 2) The Lutherans didn't break away from the Western Church, the Romans broke away from them.

Albion · Dec 13, 2012

River-Dweller said:
I have been studying Catholicism; both directly and indirectly for a few years. However, I have been seriously studying it for the past few days.

I have never been to a Catholic church. I have been to an Orthodox church and an Anglican church but that's as close as I've gotten. To be honest, I have to admit that it has partially been because of a lack of interest on my part.

I was raised Pentecostal and I would describe myself as a Calvinistic Pentecostal. If I was anything other than Pentecostal, it would probably be Anglican.

So, I was intrigued to hear that Pope Benedict XVI opened the door for dissatisfied Anglicans to become Roman Catholics.

I have several concerns with RC theology but my top concerns are as follows:

Veneration of Saints
Purgatory
Rejection of the priesthood of all believers
Icons
Required celibacy of the clergy

The celibacy issue is mitigated by the fact that married Anglican priests who convert can remain married but I don't see any way around the other issues.

There are a few issues that I agree with the RCC on. Those would include theistic evolution, their pro-marriage, pro-life, and anti-contraception stances, and I am comfortable with the perpetual virginity of Mary doctrine even though I'm not completely sold on it. And, I should add that since I am in a broad sense a Holiness Pentecostal, I believe that an episcopal form of church government is correct.

So, that is where I am essentially.

You may have more in common with Lutheranism than Anglicanism, if truth be told, but I don't quite get what it is that you are presenting to us for discussion. I assume that there is something you have in mind--should you change churches, what we think of those Roman Catholic doctrines, something like that?

There is nothing ground-breaking about the Pope's offer BTW. Anglicans always could convert to Roman Catholicism if they felt like it. He didn't offer them anything in particular except for the idea that groups of Anglicans who always were Roman Catholics at heart would be welcomed together.

Tangible · Dec 13, 2012

A Holiness Pentecostal is probably going to have issues with any traditional church. Especially if you hold to Christian Perfectionism. Charismatic gifts are also not practiced as a general rule, except for a few fringe groups of Catholics, Anglicans, and even Lutherans (he said with great chagrin).

Just for kicks, you might consider reading through the Augsburg Confession, arguably the most basic confession of Lutheranism. It's not very long, and is easily understood.

http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

Yarddog · Dec 13, 2012

River-Dweller said:
I have several concerns with RC theology but my top concerns are as follows:

I was raised a Baptist and can understand your concerns. I had a few myself when I was going through RCIA classes. I thought that they may keep me from joining the Catholic Church but God cleared some things up for me.

River-Dweller said:
Veneration of Saints

Surely you have no problem understanding the special place which God has for those that he has chosen to do great things in the name of Christ, such as the Apostles, or Mark, Luke, Barnabas, Timothy, Clement, etc...

Veneration is not worship which is reserved for God, it is honoring for great men and women whom God chose.

River-Dweller said:
Purgatory

It is the final purification of God's children before entering heaven.

River-Dweller said:
Rejection of the priesthood of all believers

Not sure where you got this. We are a royal priesthood.

River-Dweller said:
Icons

The Greek word ikon is translated usually into image. As Paul says: Col. 1: 15 Who is the image(ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Icons in the ancient Church were created as reminders of Jesus, Saints, etc.. so that believers could use them to aid in worship of God.

River-Dweller said:
Required celibacy of the clergy

Priestly celibacy is a discipline within the Latin rite but celibacy is also mandated by the Orthodox Church for Bishops and monks. Eastern Rite Catholic priest are usually married.

Christ_is_my_Light · Dec 15, 2012

River-Dweller said:
I have several concerns with RC theology

I had some similar problems when I was learning about Catholicism. My main issues centered on Mary and birth control.

Veneration of saints: I believed too many non-Catholics about this. Once I realized that there are some Catholics who take things too far, and their veneration borders on worship - but that is NOT the position of the Church - I understood that venerating saints is looking up to them as people who are to be examples of faith in their actions and lives.

Purgatory: I accepted this one pretty easily. The way it was explained to me is that going to purgatory means we are going to heaven ... eventually. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, Dying with unconfessed sin leaves us with effects that we need to be cleansed of before we can be be permanently in God's presence.

Rejection of the priesthood of all believers: what yarddog said!

Icons: pictures of loved ones in our family of faith. Veneration of icons, like veneration of saints, can be taken to extremes by some individuals but is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

Required celibacy of the clergy According to the lead instructor of my RCIA class, the Catholic Church began requiring celibacy for priests when the Church was loosing too much of its treasures and wealth when priests/bishops/cardinals were willing their possessions to their children.

River-Dweller said:
My concern is continuity. I want to be connected to the church, historically speaking.

I have had many atheists and agnostics question Christianity because of so many denominations that have broken away from the Catholic church.

This was one of the biggest reasons I explored being Catholic. It seemed that all other Christian denominations had broken away from the Catholic Church, broke away from a denomination that away from the Catholic Church, or sprang up out of nowhere.

River-Dweller · Dec 15, 2012

Christ_is_my_Light said:
I had some similar problems when I was learning about Catholicism. My main issues centered on Mary and birth control.

I already agree with their position on birth control. I came to that conviction on my own without any influence from the church because of my firm conviction that life begins at conception and some contraceptives may act as an abortifacient.

Regarding Mary, I don't have a problem with the perpetual virginity of Mary but I do have a problem with the Immaculate Conception.

River-Dweller · Dec 15, 2012

Yarddog said:
I was raised a Baptist and can understand your concerns. I had a few myself when I was going through RCIA classes. I thought that they may keep me from joining the Catholic Church but God cleared some things up for me.

Surely you have no problem understanding the special place which God has for those that he has chosen to do great things in the name of Christ, such as the Apostles, or Mark, Luke, Barnabas, Timothy, Clement, etc...

Veneration is not worship which is reserved for God, it is honoring for great men and women whom God chose.

But I see more continuity between the old and new covenants and, to my knowledge, Judaism does not pray to the dead.

River-Dweller · Dec 15, 2012

Tangible said:
A Holiness Pentecostal is probably going to have issues with any traditional church. Especially if you hold to Christian Perfectionism. Charismatic gifts are also not practiced as a general rule, except for a few fringe groups of Catholics, Anglicans, and even Lutherans (he said with great chagrin).

Just for kicks, you might consider reading through the Augsburg Confession, arguably the most basic confession of Lutheranism. It's not very long, and is easily understood.

http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

I don't believe in Christian Perfectionism. I never have. Especially since I believe in the TULIP.

However, I do believe that there is a stage in the sanctification process where we are set apart for the service of God in a special way and I believe that when you reach that stage, sanctification becomes easier. However, I don't believe that we will ever be perfect this side of heaven.

Some of the Puritans such as John Owen (just one example) were called "Reformed Sealers" and they had views similar to mine.

So, I feel that I can agree with the Wesleyan concept represented by the phrase "saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost" without believing in Entire Sanctification. In fact, Wesley's views can be traced back to the German Pietists and the Puritans, he just took the concept a step further.

Albion · Dec 15, 2012

Christ_is_my_Light said:
This was one of the biggest reasons I explored being Catholic. It seemed that all other Christian denominations had broken away from the Catholic Church, broke away from a denomination that away from the Catholic Church, or sprang up out of nowhere.

It's correct doctrine and practice that matters, not the age of the mistakes.

bbbbbbb · Dec 15, 2012

Albion said:
It's correct doctrine and practice that matters, not the age of the mistakes.

steve_bakr · Dec 15, 2012

River-Dweller said:
I already agree with their position on birth control. I came to that conviction on my own without any influence from the church because of my firm conviction that life begins at conception and some contraceptives may act as an abortifacient.

Regarding Mary, I don't have a problem with the perpetual virginity of Mary but I do have a problem with the Immaculate Conception.

Greetings! I'm so glad that you are studying Catholicism. I am a convert. I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in a Pentecostal Church when I was young. I rarely say that, but I figure you know what that is.

Anyway, some Catholics may tell you that you must accept every teaching of the Catholic Church before joining. I would say that what really counts is that you commit yourself to being open to those teachings you have trouble with. If you are open, the rest will come.

My sponsor told me that even he has some questions, and then he said, "But that's alright. It's OK to have questions," so long as you remain open.

I would advise you at this point--instead of waiting on account of some questions--to start going to Mass regularly. Try several Catholic Churches, if you want.

The questions you need to find the answers to are, Do I want to receive the Sacraments? Can my faith be expressed in the Mass? Am I called to become a practicing Catholic?

You need to experience Catholic worship to find the answers to those questions. I'm telling you this as one who has gone through the process of conversion.

A few tips. First, if you want to go up with everyone else, cross your arms over your chest with your hands touching either shoulder and the priest will make a little sign of the cross on your forehead and bless you.

Second, sometimes with Catholics, you have to take the initiative at first. Introduce yourself, tell them you're inquiring into the Catholic Church, and that should open people up.

No one is going to push you into converting. The process of converting takes time, and you'll have every opportunity to opt out. See if you can join an RCIA class.

We could go over each one of those teachings, if you want, but I think you need to experience the Catholic Church by going to Mass.

Lastly, please open a thread in the OBOB forum and ask your questions there.

Yarddog · Dec 15, 2012

River-Dweller said:
But I see more continuity between the old and new covenants and, to my knowledge, Judaism does not pray to the dead.

Neither do Catholics, unless you believe that those who are in heaven are dead, instead of alive. Catholics and the Orthodox pray and ask that those who are alive in heaven to pray with us, to God, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Albion · Dec 15, 2012

Yarddog said:
Neither do Catholics, unless you believe that those who are in heaven are dead, instead of alive. Catholics and the Orthodox pray and ask that those who are alive in heaven to pray with us, to God, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why do Catholics think that that footwork gains them anything? We all know--you, I, him, them--that, when your body ceases to function, everyone calls that state "dead" whether or not one believes in an afterlife.

You pray to the dead while we do not believe it to be a correct practice. That's it.

If you really believed it to be God-pleasing to do so, why wouldn't you just defend the practice the way a person who believes he's doing nothing wrong would normally do? Seriously.

Christ_is_my_Light · Dec 15, 2012

River-Dweller said:
Regarding Mary, I don't have a problem with the perpetual virginity of Mary but I do have a problem with the Immaculate Conception.

This didn't cause me any trouble as I understood that God would not put something so special as His Son in something that had been tainted by sin. God can do anything, including preserving Mary as a pure and untainted vessel. Now, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary caused me some issues, but I was open to learning and trying to understand.

steve_bakr said:
Anyway, some Catholics may tell you that you must accept every teaching of the Catholic Church before joining. I would say that what really counts is that you commit yourself to being open to those teachings you have trouble with. If you are open, the rest will come.

This is the biggest thing. Not all Catholics believe everything the Church teaches because they don't know what the Church teaches and aren't interesting in learning. They forget that it is the duty of every Catholic to continue to learning about their faith and forming their conscience throughout their lives.

Second, sometimes with Catholics, you have to take the initiative at first. Introduce yourself, tell them you're inquiring into the Catholic Church, and that should open people up.

So true! People are more open to sharing now than they were when I was young. Visiting more than one Catholic church is also a good idea because you may feel more comfortable at one more than you do at another.

No one is going to push you into converting. The process of converting takes time, and you'll have every opportunity to opt out. See if you can join an RCIA class.

I learned that in the "olden days", inquirers would be turned away three times before they were accepted to begin their instruction. RCIA starts at the end of summer in a lot of parishes, but if you are serious about learning more, you can always call the parish you feel most comfortable with to talk to the priest or the director of religious education.

Studying Catholicism

Newbie

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

Newbie

bbbbbbb

Guest

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

Facilitator

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

Senior Contributor

Christ_is_my_Light

Guest

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Facilitator

bbbbbbb

Guest

Christian

Senior Contributor

Facilitator

Christ_is_my_Light

Guest

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency