"Study Islam" - what does it mean?

[Heathen Dawn]

A lot of things are IMPOSSIBLE for the pagan moon god called Allah;

Time to cut down on the dose of Chick Tracts, my friend.

 

[crystalpc]

Time to cut down on the dose of Chick Tracts, my friend.

I doubt if Sijo even knows what a chic tract is! Jack Chick never wrote history, simply quoted it, and it doesn't make it invalid simply because he did.

 

[rahma]

Careful... we're not allowed to discuss Islam. It seems only 'scholars' are allowed to discuss it... though that seems to forbid 99% of all Moslems from discussing their own religion...

If James would actually pay attention to what I have told him a million and 2 times, he would know I tell him to READ scholars, who have dedicated their life to knowing every little nuance about the faith, and thus can site a million and 2 ayah and hadith for every subject.

The thing with Islam is that the source knowledge is vast, almost too big for any one person to know it all. If I want to talk about marriage, there are 100 quranic ayat on it as well as thousands of hadith. Thus, to know the full picture of marriage in Islam, I must examine all these specific pieces of information and come up with the whole picture.

It's like a piece of a puzzle. I could go through the entire 1000+ pieces myself and put it together, or I can see a photograph that someone else had already done if I'm short on time. That is what the reliance on scholars is, people who dedicate their lives to finding out what the big picture is. For some things, I put together the puzzle myself, like for marriage, jihad and women's rights. Other things, I find my scholars I trust and read their work. For some things, I read a number of scholars, look at their commentary on the sources, look at the sources themselves and create my own opinion.

There are 40 different areas of study, and each are integral to the puzzle.

 

[rahma]

I doubt if Sijo even knows what a chic tract is! Jack Chick never wrote history, simply quoted it, and it doesn't make it invalid simply because he did.

Except that Jack Chick and Robert Morey are the 2 proponenants of the moon god theory, which has been disproven again and again.

It is very very insulting to have someone call our God a moon god, when the Qur'an is clear that He created the moon and the moon bows to God. It's a slur and a low jab, not fair debate at all. And I'm sick of it

 

[jameseb]

If James would actually pay attention to what I have told him a million and 2 times, he would know I tell him to READ scholars, who have dedicated their life to knowing every little nuance about the faith, and thus can site a million and 2 ayah and hadith for every subject.

I don't suppose it ever occured to you that others might think that is a convenient excuse for trying to brush over issues of contention? To suggest that no one person can understand all the material is basically to say that "its all fair and accurate--somehow--its just no one person knows it all."

I'm sorry, I don't need a 'scholar' to tell me what is written clear as day in a hadith. I don't need to know the history of it, the mood of the writer or what Muhammad ate for lunch that day before he spoke the words. Its a convenient excuse to dismiss someone's questions or points by saying "go read scholars." Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

 

[1vision]

While I am not quite sure why my relationship with God is so fascinating, I suppose I could answer. It comes from both. Five times a day, I am on my knees, humbled in front of my Creator. To humble yourself in front of your Lord is a truly personal experience.

I would find it interesting because of the way you express your religion. As you know, I am a non-muslim. I guess I just thought that if you know alot about your religion, and who Allah is, you would be able to express to me who he is to you personally and how you guys interact with each other. However, you say that you pray 5 times a day, on your knees, humbled infront of your creator. You said that it is a truly personal experience, so I guess I must ask, besides the humbleness you feel when you are praying on your knees, what other relationship do you have with Allah?( Relationship as in how do you guys interact with one another).

 

[crystalpc]

Except that Jack Chick and Robert Morey are the 2 proponenants of the moon god theory, which has been disproven again and again.

It is very very insulting to have someone call our God a moon god, when the Qur'an is clear that He created the moon and the moon bows to God. It's a slur and a low jab, not fair debate at all. And I'm sick of it

Rhama, the history cannot be changed no matter who reports it. It is a part of the history of the middle east. Of the gods who meccans worshiped one was allat who supposedly told mohammed that he/she was the moon god.
Jack Chick or Robert Morley did not make this history up they simply reported it. Your beef would have to be with the encyclopedias of the past centurys. and the historians of the past centurys.

 

[rahma]

I don't suppose it ever occured to you that others might think that is a convenient excuse for trying to brush over issues of contention? To suggest that no one person can understand all the material is basically to say that "its all fair and accurate--somehow--its just no one person knows it all."

James, I've explained to you time and time again what your questionable hadiths mean, in light of other hadiths. That is how a muslim learns about Islam. They don't read one thing and say, yup, there I know it. They study and study and study and study. If you want to learn about Islam like muslims do, I am telling you the way it goes.

I'm sorry, I don't need a 'scholar' to tell me what is written clear as day in a hadith. I don't need to know the history of it, the mood of the writer or what Muhammad ate for lunch that day before he spoke the words. Its a convenient excuse to dismiss someone's questions or points by saying "go read scholars." Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Then you're dismissing 1400 years of Islamic scholarship and everything islamic decisions are based on. One cannot understand Islam without going through the proper channels.

It's like me ripping a page out of the OT and judging all of Judaism and Christianity by:

Then Amaziah summoned his courage and led his army to the Valley of Salt, where they killed ten thousand Edomite troops from Seir. They captured another ten thousand and took them to the top of a cliff and threw them off, dashing them to pieces on the rocks below. Meanwhile, the hired troops that Amaziah had sent home raided several of the towns of Judah between Samaria and Beth-horon, killing three thousand people and carrying off great quantities of plunder. (2 Chronicles 25:11-13 NLT)

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.







Oh my goodness, look how evil christainity and judaism is. I don't need to know anything else, because it's all right there plain and clear as day

 

[1vision]

Actually about the moon god thing, i have heard about that before.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/554692/posts
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

 

[rahma]

Rhama, the history cannot be changed no matter who reports it. It is a part of the history of the middle east. Of the gods who meccans worshiped one was allat who supposedly told mohammed that he/she was the moon god.
Jack Chick or Robert Morley did not make this history up they simply reported it. Your beef would have to be with the encyclopedias of the past centurys. and the historians of the past centurys.

Refutation of the Moon God Myth

Additionally, the Israelites used to worship golden calfs and other idols in place of YHWH. Does this mean YHWH was actually an idol or a calf? Just because early people make mistakes and identify their god with a moon, doesn't make the god an actual moon god. Abraham and Ishmael brought monotheism and the worship of one God to the Arabs. If the Arabs forgot and messed up, that doesn't make the one God into a moon god. It means the arabs messed up.

 

[rahma]

Actually about the moon god thing, i have heard about that before.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/554692/posts
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Please see the link in my post 30, as well as

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/moongod.htm


The crescent moon in Islam, so often pointed to as proof of a moon god origin, was not from the prophet Muhammad, but added hundreds of years later when Islam moved into Turkey. The earliest mosques have no crescent moon. The flag of the Prophet was black or green, no moon. His mosque, no moon. The dome of the rock, no moon. The earliest mosques in egypt, no moon. Most mosques in egypt, no moons.

 

[jameseb]

James, I've explained to you time and time again what your questionable hadiths mean, in light of other hadiths. That is how a muslim learns about Islam. They don't read one thing and say, yup, there I know it. They study and study and study and study. If you want to learn about Islam like muslims do, I am telling you the way it goes.

Incorrent, rhama. Let's go back to the same ole beaten up horse here..... the slave girl ordered to be executed by Muhammad for singing satirical songs about him. I've yet to hear the justice behind this act.... and as she was a prisoner it is also goes against his own teachings that prisoners should not be exectued.

Then you're dismissing 1400 years of Islamic scholarship and everything islamic decisions are based on. One cannot understand Islam without going through the proper channels.

No offense, but do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Oh my goodness, look how evil christainity and judaism is. I don't need to know anything else, because it's all right there plain and clear as day

Oh my goodness, you're wrong....again. You can quote from the OT all you wish, rahma, but as a Christian, a Gentile at that, I'm not bound by those same laws. Please, I encourage you though to scrutinize every inch of the Gospels and tell me just one lil' wee itsy bit tiny piece of detail that suggest Christ ever endorsed one iota of violence and bloodshed that Muhammad endorsed. I beg you.... go for it.

 

[rahma]

Incorrent, rhama. Let's go back to the same ole beaten up horse here..... the slave girl ordered to be executed by Muhammad for singing satirical songs about him. I've yet to hear the justice behind this act.... and as she was a prisoner it is also goes against his own teachings that prisoners should not be exectued.

I recommended books about the life of the Prophet that explain this action. Mine are in a storage unit in chicago, otherwise I would get them and type them out for you. If you are really serious about being an anti islam expert you'll need to do some studying.

No offense, but do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Not absurd at all. There are ways of studying Islam, set out by the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the sahabi (his companions). Muslims have followed those methods for 1400 years and we continue to follow them today.

Oh my goodness, you're wrong....again. You can quote from the OT all you wish, rahma, but as a Christian, a Gentile at that, I'm not bound by those same laws. Please, I encourage you though to scrutinize every inch of the Gospels and tell me just one lil' wee itsy bit tiny piece of detail that suggest Christ ever endorsed one iota of violence and bloodshed that Muhammad endorsed. I beg you.... go for it.

But Jesus is God and God said all those things in the Old Testament. In any case, it still holds true for the Jews. The God of the Old Testament, the same God as the Christian God, or so they claim, endorsed that violence. Thus, seeing as how Jesus IS the same as God in your view, he was with God when he made those proclamations.


Continuing my quoting verses without context:

God wants men to cut off their private parts for the sake of heaven:
"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV)


Christians also love to quote Isaiah to prove Jesus is coming, lets see what else Isaiah has to say:

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21

Mathew 10:34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Mathew 10:35-37 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;


Here Jesus tells his followers to follow the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nevium) Mathew 5:17-19 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 15:4-7

4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[2] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition


Mathew 19:29

29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[6] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life

Luke 12:47-48
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.




I don't have to know the context, I simply read them and I know.

 

[1vision]

But Jesus is God and God said all those things in the Old Testament. In any case, it still holds true for the Jews. The God of the Old Testament, the same God as the Christian God, or so they claim, endorsed that violence. Thus, seeing as how Jesus IS the same as God in your view, he was with God when he made those proclamations.

Jesus is the son of God. When we say that Jesus is God in flesh it means that he was the only human form of God sent from God that never sinned. Jesus is the representation of God in flesh.

 

[rahma]

Jesus is the son of God. When we say that Jesus is God in flesh it means that he was the only human form of God sent from God that never sinned. Jesus is the representation of God in flesh.

Yes, but was he God in the Old Testament? If he was God in the Old Testament, then HE was the one who made the laws. Thus, it was Jesus making those laws and saying those things. If Jesus was with God from the beginning, then he was with God when he made those laws.

 

[1vision]

But Jesus is God and God said all those things in the Old Testament. In any case, it still holds true for the Jews. The God of the Old Testament, the same God as the Christian God, or so they claim, endorsed that violence. Thus, seeing as how Jesus IS the same as God in your view, he was with God when he made those proclamations.





God does not endorce violence. I am sure you know of the commandment though shalt not kill? Violence that occurs in the bible is a result of man making his own decisions to do things, and God having mercy on him, and helping him get out of the mess man made.







Continuing my quoting verses without context:






Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)





Since I am sure that you have read the whole book of Isaiah, you should be able to understand why God would command something like that. It was because of nations trying to exalt themselves above him continually. As you see, God's wrath in the old testament is serious justice. ex: Noah's ark. God has mercy but when you continually abuse it, his justice will come.






“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21






That's the way it is for some who are living for Christ. (as Christ explains this is what happens to some when you decide to live for Him). It happens all the time. The Mid. East is a god example. People are slaughtered, tortured, and mistraeted all the time for their belief in Christ. This happens to people by their own family, and sometimes strangers. Depends on the situation.





Mathew 10:34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.







Now, have you ever seen in the bible where jesus literally had a sword? no. He is talking spiritually. another ex of the sword is: Ephesians 6:17. When Jesus says he comes not with peace but with the sword he means the sword of the spirit which the word of God (son of God sent with God's message). So basically what Jesus was saying was that he did not come to compromise the word of God with false doctrines but rather with the fiery word of God that causes alot of contreversy. He was saying that if he came in peace that wouold be him compromising the set, firm word of God. He is saying exspect opposition.






Mathew 10:35-37 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]






I adressed this above.





37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;







Meaning anyone who would rather compromise what the bible says with their family, friends, etc. is not a true follower of him. Ex: you say the bible contains violence, I don't deny that but i do give you the correct interpretations.






Here Jesus tells his followers to follow the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nevium) Mathew 5:17-19 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.






That is correct. God have certain commandments to certain people who had certain situations. WE should be able to honestly put together 2 and 2 ( old, and new testaments) of what God has commanded us fully.







Mathew 15:4-7

4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[2] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition




I do not see this like you put it in the bible, please clarify it.









Mathew 19:29






29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[6] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life






that does not mean thaT you just randomly leave your fmily so that u can inherit eternal life. It means those who can put God's will first infront of those of their family, etc. There are alot of different situational examples that go along with that. God may ask you to not hang around certain people who may be a bad influence on you,etc.







Luke 12:47-48
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.









It was a parable that Jesus used in order to relate to the certain group of people he was talking to at that time.





From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.




It is:
To whom much is given, much is required, and to whom men have entrusted alot with, they will entrust him with even more. Over all christ is talking about christians being consistent in their following him. When a christian deliberately sins against God, continually mis using his grace, god will punish them as a parent who loves their child would. I have had it happen to me times b4. God's grace however is sufficient and his grace continues, and he knows when we should be punished, and how. sometimes we just need a little shaking up and other times we need a more serious punishment. When God has given us the free gift of salvation, we are required to follow him (which at times can be alot but worth it). And when God sees that we do not take salvation for gracted, he blesses us even the more , more bountifully.






I don't have to know the context, I simply read them and I know.

I hope now you know that is untrue.

 

[crystalpc]

Yes, but was he God in the Old Testament? If he was God in the Old Testament, then HE was the one who made the laws. Thus, it was Jesus making those laws and saying those things. If Jesus was with God from the beginning, then he was with God when he made those laws.

The Old Testament was given to govern a nation of people. The New Testament was given for people of all nations to govern themselves. I will write my laws in your heart....

 

[rahma]

I hope now you know that is untrue.

Of course I know that I must take verses, put them in context, look at the history and the commentary surrounding them. Too bad other people don't give other religions the same benefit.

However, when I attempt to explain Quranic verses and put them in context, like you have done for these bible verses, people cry fowl and say I am skirting the issue.

 

[crystalpc]

Refutation of the Moon God Myth

Additionally, the Israelites used to worship golden calfs and other idols in place of YHWH. Does this mean YHWH was actually an idol or a calf? Just because early people make mistakes and identify their god with a moon, doesn't make the god an actual moon god. Abraham and Ishmael brought monotheism and the worship of one God to the Arabs. If the Arabs forgot and messed up, that doesn't make the one God into a moon god. It means the arabs messed up.

No, what it does mean is that Israel has been truthful about itself and its sins. Other wise they would have left out their sins against God, or tried to skirt the issue. I had read of the moon god history long before I ever heard of Robert Morey, or Jack chick. They were not a factor when I was going to school in the 50s and early 60s.

 

[jameseb]

I recommended books about the life of the Prophet that explain this action. Mine are in a storage unit in chicago, otherwise I would get them and type them out for you. If you are really serious about being an anti islam expert you'll need to do some studying.

And again I get the book recommendations. Rahma, I assume you cannot adequately defend Muhammad for having a helpess slave girl put to death for 'mocking him.' I guess we can just leave it at that.

Not absurd at all. There are ways of studying Islam, set out by the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the sahabi (his companions). Muslims have followed those methods for 1400 years and we continue to follow them today.

All the same, I'll take liberty to discuss Islam without being a noted scholar on the subject, so any more sarcastic comments in regards to that will be reported. Please refrain from such. Thank you.

But Jesus is God and God said all those things in the Old Testament. In any case, it still holds true for the Jews. The God of the Old Testament, the same God as the Christian God, or so they claim, endorsed that violence. Thus, seeing as how Jesus IS the same as God in your view, he was with God when he made those proclamations.


Continuing my quoting verses without context:

God wants men to cut off their private parts for the sake of heaven:
"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV)


Christians also love to quote Isaiah to prove Jesus is coming, lets see what else Isaiah has to say:

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21

Mathew 10:34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Mathew 10:35-37 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;


Here Jesus tells his followers to follow the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nevium) Mathew 5:17-19 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 15:4-7

4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[2] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition


Mathew 19:29

29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[6] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life

Luke 12:47-48
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.




I don't have to know the context, I simply read them and I know.

Rahma, that is... well, silly. You can take words out of context, but you can't take Muhammad's action at Mecca out of context. I read more than just that one lil' bit. The fact that you cannot counter this, but instead try to obfuscate the issue by erroneously drawing a correlation with NT scripture tells me, again, that you are unable to defend Muhammad's actions.