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Strugling between freedom and faith ...

Archaenfel

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A question for other Conservative Lutherans:

I believe in the separation of Church and State, and I believe in freedom of religion. Yet at the same time I strongly believe in the teachings of Christ - he is the only way. Other faiths are vain attempts to find enlightenment without seeking God, or are tools of Satan to lead those seeking answers away from God.

If I support the rights of others to believe and practice as they wish, I am enabling Satan's victory over the hearts of the lost. If I oppose these false beliefs, I am persecuting others for their beliefs.

I find my heart trapped between these two options ... what am I to do?
 

alexnbethmom

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you know, this is something that i have struggled with as well.....my thinking is, because we are Americans, and live in America, we should support others' rights to believe (or not believe) as they choose, because if it was any different, we would not be allowed to believe how WE choose to believe....but then pray like crazy for those who are lost....

no clue if that's any help at all, but that's my two cents....((((hugs))))
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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you know, this is something that i have struggled with as well.....my thinking is, because we are Americans, and live in America, we should support others' rights to believe (or not believe) as they choose, because if it was any different, we would not be allowed to believe how WE choose to believe....but then pray like crazy for those who are lost....

no clue if that's any help at all, but that's my two cents....((((hugs))))

Indeed, we can not legislate or mandate faith and righteousness; sorry to say.
 
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Aibrean

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I think it this way - the best thing we can do is just show our love. It doesn't mean we need to directly support them but they do have every right as anyone else because of our laws and it's very clear that we are to follow the laws of our country.

By being non-combative and just by saying yes, they should have the same freedoms as we do as the laws define, it's no different than agreeing with the Bible.

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
My mother was saying the Muslims should go back to their country because all they want to do is chop our heads off.

I told her that wasn't a very Christian attitude and really no different than condoning the imprisonment of the Japanese citizens during WWII. They were citizens but not treated as such.

Just because people worship different does not mean we need to start another crusade. We show them love and they ask why. It opens doors.
 
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RadMan

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A question for other Conservative Lutherans:

I believe in the separation of Church and State, and I believe in freedom of religion. Yet at the same time I strongly believe in the teachings of Christ - he is the only way. Other faiths are vain attempts to find enlightenment without seeking God, or are tools of Satan to lead those seeking answers away from God.

If I support the rights of others to believe and practice as they wish, I am enabling Satan's victory over the hearts of the lost. If I oppose these false beliefs, I am persecuting others for their beliefs.

I find my heart trapped between these two options ... what am I to do?
Are you really persecuting others for their beliefs when you point out their error? What do you think the whole NT was about from Jesus on through the apostles and the ones commanded to do the great Commision? Was it just to preach the Gospel or was it also to point out error of the Jews and guiding the errant chruches. It was both.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Are you really persecuting others for their beliefs when you point out their error? What do you think the whole NT was about from Jesus on through the apostles and the ones commanded to do the great Commision? Was it just to preach the Gospel or was it also to point out error of the Jews and guiding the errant chruches. It was both.

That is evangalism, and Christ has indeed mandated that the Church teach all Nations; Scripture, however, does not tell us that all Nations (or even our own nation for that matter) will listen.

I think it this way - the best thing we can do is just show our love. It doesn't mean we need to directly support them but they do have every right as anyone else because of our laws and it's very clear that we are to follow the laws of our country.

By being non-combative and just by saying yes, they should have the same freedoms as we do as the laws define, it's no different than agreeing with the Bible.


My mother was saying the Muslims should go back to their country because all they want to do is chop our heads off.

I told her that wasn't a very Christian attitude and really no different than condoning the imprisonment of the Japanese citizens during WWII. They were citizens but not treated as such.

Just because people worship different does not mean we need to start another crusade. We show them love and they ask why. It opens doors.

St. Paul submitted to the Authority of the Pagan Roman Government, and requested that he be tried as a Roman Citizen before Caesar. Likewise, we have the examples of the Martyrs of the first three Centuries and many others from that time to present.

Our Lord also advocated submission to that same Pagan Government; "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"; and ultimately to be arrested and tried by the Temple Authorities, and then tried and executed on our behalf by the same Roman Government.

I think for most of us, myself included, where we get into trouble is when we confuse "secular humanism" with the compassionate humanism of Christianity. Some well known example from the historic record would be; the Catholic Priests in Central America who openly opposed their Governments, and supported Rebel guerrilla organizations, and got assassinated by the government for doing so. Another example would be Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

We find it very easy to admire these men for opposing very evil and unjust governments; as Pastors, that is ordained servants of the Word who are held to a very high standard, and expected to be "imitators of Christ". As such, in light of the example Christ, his Apostles, and the Holy Martyrs, such admiration is misplaced.

The ELCA/ELCIC Commemorates Bonhoeffer as a Martyr, and by doing such they are sending out a very strong message that it is OK to seditiously plot against and violently oppose Government Authority. This certainly goes against what our Lord and His Apostles have taught us.

We must always be mindful that, as Christians, we are in this world, but not of this world.
 
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DaRev

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It depends on the particular "law".

We are indeed to follow the law of the land, as it too is established by God. But when a "law of the land" leads to sin, then we as faithful Christians must stand on the side of Christ. Our land says its OK to murder preborn infants. Should we stand up for the rights of those women who murder their own children as a form of birth control, or are we to stand on the side of Christ and do what we can to protect the innocent and most vulnerable?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It depends on the particular "law".

We are indeed to follow the law of the land, as it too is established by God. But when a "law of the land" leads to sin, then we as faithful Christians must stand on the side of Christ. Our land says its OK to murder preborn infants. Should we stand up for the rights of those women who murder their own children as a form of birth control, or are we to stand on the side of Christ and do what we can to protect the innocent and most vulnerable?

Lobbying and peaceful protest (as I see it) are part of spreading the Gospel which is part and parcel with God's law. Blowing up abortion clinics, and shooting abortionists are not a Christian response.:preach:
 
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Zecryphon

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A question for other Conservative Lutherans:

I believe in the separation of Church and State, and I believe in freedom of religion. Yet at the same time I strongly believe in the teachings of Christ - he is the only way. Other faiths are vain attempts to find enlightenment without seeking God, or are tools of Satan to lead those seeking answers away from God.

If I support the rights of others to believe and practice as they wish, I am enabling Satan's victory over the hearts of the lost. If I oppose these false beliefs, I am persecuting others for their beliefs.

I find my heart trapped between these two options ... what am I to do?

If you support the rights of others to believe and practice as they wish, I don't think you are enabling Satan in any way, because we were told by Jesus, and I'm paraphrasing here, 'to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's.'

If you support the rights of others to believe and practice as they wish, then you are respecting the freedoms these people have been given by the government of the U.S.A. You're obeyinig God. See these scriptures here:

1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, 1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 1Pe 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. 1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.
1Pe 2:19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 1Pe 2:20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.


The only way you can enable Satan's victory over the lost is if you do not fulfill the Great Commission, if you sit on your hands and do nothing. Yet if you spread the Gospel message to as many as you can, you thwart Satan's attempts to lure these people into the pits of hell. God has a plan for everything, so don't beat yourself up over this one. You're not doing anything wrong by supporting the rights of others to choose for themselves who and how to worship. God knows who are His and He will use Christians and other tools to win back those who He chose before the foundations of the world.


 
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DaRev

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Lobbying and peaceful protest (as I see it) are part of spreading the Gospel which is part and parcel with God's law. Blowing up abortion clinics, and shooting abortionists are not a Christian response.:preach:

Of course not, since fighting murder with murder and destruction is not only illegal, it's immoral. And, FYI, I wasn't advocating such behavior.
 
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DaRev

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If you support the rights of others to believe and practice as they wish, then you are respecting the freedoms these people have been given by the government of the U.S.A. You're obeyinig God.

Except when the belief and practice of others is harmful to life and property. Supporting such is not proper in the sight of God.
 
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Studeclunker

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You know, the legal arguments for 'separation of Church and State' weren't taken from the Constitution itself. If you believe in this philosophy, I'd suggest strongly you read the Constitution. Do so carefully, without prejudice, and you will see that there is no protection of the state from religion at all. There is considerable protection for the free practice of religion though, specifically and carefully drawn out. Included in this is a provision forbidding a state church: "Congress shall not establish a National Congregation."

As to the practice of pagan and Jewish religions; we will never convince all of these people. They are too wrapped up in the evil one's deception of salvation by works, and works righteousness. However, if they are all 'sent back where they came from,' how are we to extend the grace of Christ and present them with the Gospel message?

One of the great beauties of this governmental system in the U.S. is that we are able to freely present the Gospel to anyone anywhere. This message cannot be spread with a sword (or gun for that matter). If we allow the restriction of any religion, then with the legal system we have here, all religions (including Christianity) will be repressed. So, we must encourage the free practice of all religions here, and do what we can to approach and convince the decieved.

As Christ said, "look around you, the fields are white for the harvest!" He also told the famous parable of the wheat and tares. In this country, we are sown, even mixed, with the weeds of the earth. Our purpose is to persuade the lost to salvation. How can we do this when we don't allow them amoung us? I don't say that we should allow them to pollute our belief systems and worship practices, such as happened in our more liberal bretheran. No... but if we chase them all off, to whom do we preach? To whom do we share the message of salvation? We were not told to keep this just in our families and kin (the mistake made by the Jews). We were told to, 'Go unto all the world and peoples.' So much the better if they are attracted to us and convenently to hand.^_^;)

So, don't be concerned about the activities of Satan and his minnions. They are already defeated. Just keep to the task appointed to you. The Holy Spirit will do his job, I assure you. Don't let the evil one decieve you into thinking his activities have subjugated the Church or this country. Even if he does subjugate this country, what of it? You aren't really a citizen of this or any other worldly country. We are subjects of the Kingdom of Christ. Our King has already won. He has already defeated Satan and all of this world's systems and religions. All He is waiting for is the last saint to pass into His kingdom so that the Father may give him permission to return. May that blessed person come over soon that our Lord may also return soon.:crossrc:
 
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Zecryphon

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Except when the belief and practice of others is harmful to life and property. Supporting such is not proper in the sight of God.

Show me where I said supporting such behavior was proper in the sight of God. I believe we are to submit to the authorities God has placed over us, until they ask or tell us to do something that goes against what God has said is good and lawful to do.
 
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Zecryphon

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Easy, Zec.
I don't believe the Revrand was accusing you of anything. He was just appending to your statement a useful caveat. Something that is complementary to your statement.


I'm not worked up here, Stude. If DaRev was indeed appending my statement, that's cool.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Of course not, since fighting murder with murder and destruction is not only illegal, it's immoral. And, FYI, I wasn't advocating such behavior.

Forgive me Pastor,
blush.gif
I certainly did not mean it to sound that way; I was just trying to add clarification.
 
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RadMan

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Another example would be Dietrich Bonhoeffer.



The ELCA/ELCIC Commemorates Bonhoeffer as a Martyr, and by doing such they are sending out a very strong message that it is OK to seditiously plot against and violently oppose Government Authority. This certainly goes against what our Lord and His Apostles have taught us.
Concordia Publishing House in St.Louis is also pushing Bonhoeffer (18 some books) and certain factions in the LCMS are advocating it also.
 
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Studeclunker

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Concordia Publishing House in St.Louis is also pushing Bonhoeffer (18 some books) and certain factions in the LCMS are advocating it also.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer had his issues, that's a fact. However, when such a government as the Third Reich takes power, I believe he was entirely right. Yes, the Lord establishes the governing powers over us. However, the Lord of the Air is the master of the systems of this world. When a legitimate government is taken over by an evil power, then I don't believe we are obliged to submit to it. Bonhoeffer was entirely correct in his position in this matter. In fact, his position was borne out as justified toward the end of the 3rd Reich's reign.

I am not Amish. I don't believe that Luther would have supported such a government as Bonhoeffer rebelled against. There comes a time when resistance, even rebellion are called for. Otherwise, we must admit our own government is invalid and must submit to the British Crown.
 
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