Struggling with tounges

Deckland,

This is in response to your other post -

Here’s what the scriptures you posted mean…

Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about those who once knew salvation but now they despise and resist Christ Jesus, they despise and resist the Holy Spirit thus they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. When that happens, they can not be renewed unto repentance because they have a reprobate mind. God doesn’t draw them.

II Peter 2:20-21 – Is the way the Lord looks at it when we sin. Stated here again in Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Hebrews 10:26-27 same thing as Heb 6:4-6.

Deckland, you said you went back to the old life style which means you sinned. That is drastically different than blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If you had done that, you would not be thinking about how to get back to the Lord. At this point, He is touching your heart because He wants you to serve Him. He has a plan, a purpose, for your life. If you reject Him drawing you, you’re saying Christ Jesus’ blood sacrifice and God’s grace and mercy isn’t enough. All you have to do is just ask Him to forgive you for doubting Him, sinning, and accept His forgiveness. (Please let me know if anything I've said doesn't make sense - sometimes I find it tough communicating via forums. You know, I had rather see the facial expressions, etc.). However, this very important decision about your destiny is left up to you.

tturt said:

Deckland,

This is in response to your other post -

Here’s what the scriptures you posted mean…

Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about those who once knew salvation but now they despise and resist Christ Jesus, they despise and resist the Holy Spirit thus they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. When that happens, they can not be renewed unto repentance because they have a reprobate mind. God doesn’t draw them.

II Peter 2:20-21 – Is the way the Lord looks at it when we sin. Stated here again in Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Hebrews 10:26-27 same thing as Heb 6:4-6.

Deckland, you said you went back to the old life style which means you sinned. That is drastically different than blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If you had done that, you would not be thinking about how to get back to the Lord. At this point, He is touching your heart because He wants you to serve Him. He has a plan, a purpose, for your life. If you reject Him drawing you, you’re saying Christ Jesus’ blood sacrifice and God’s grace and mercy isn’t enough. All you have to do is just ask Him to forgive you for doubting Him, sinning, and accept His forgiveness. (Please let me know if anything I've said doesn't make sense - sometimes I find it tough communicating via forums. You know, I had rather see the facial expressions, etc.). However, this very important decision about your destiny is left up to you.

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tturt,

First thanks for the good words.
Basically I'm trying to go back to God for the last two months - since then i started thinking again of Him and that I shouldn't keep on ignoring what I remember from that time when I was a genuine believer.
So I started reading the Bible again, most of my spare time is spent reading, I started praying again and ask God to forgive me and I started going to church. I saw those verses I mentioned and I really need to know that I'm not one of those people described in Hebrews 6:4-6.
The way I understand your explanation above is that what makes me different is the fact I want to return to God, if I'm getting it right? What's worse is that I now feel insincere in my faith, it's both here and it's gone. I have enough so that i can kneel every day and pray for help, but still not as before. This makes me think that maybe I'm really one of those described in Hebrews 6:4-6 and I can't repent. Basically the exact description of me would be of a person that has given up his faith and every little doubt that Satan gives him becomes the biggest obstacle, that prevents him from coming back to life. How should I know that God still wants me, and is willing to help me so i can overcome all this?

For you, what makes a genuine believer?

tturt said:

For you, what makes a genuine believer?

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Genuine faith. When you know and feel God is there and never have doubts because He is with you and you are allowed to see what truly happens with you. As opposed to me - when I know and remember the wonderful things, yet I am given to these "what ifs" that prevent me from being happy and believing as before.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but i don't wish to anyone a complete understanding of my issue as that would mean that he/she is in the same position as me.

Deckland

I want to quote from a book I've read a few time through in the past and was reading again today called "Understanding the Anointing," by Kenneth Hagin, who ministered successfully in the power of the Spirit for well over a half-century. He ministered until the day he slept (bodily death) at the age of 87.

In the chapter titled "The Anointing Within," he says,

"What we think, or the way we've been taught often hinders us from moving into the Spirit realm. It also will keep us from praying in tongues.

Paul said, 'For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.'(1 Cor 14:14). Our understanding, or, we might say, our mind - it would be the same thing - wants to get in on everything, but it can't get in on praying in the Spirit unless God gives the interpretation.

Therefore, our mind will try to talk us out of praying in tongues. Even after we've prayed a while, our mind will say, 'Well, what good did that do?"

Then, of course, the devil will side in with that un-renewed mind, agreeing, 'What good did you get out of that? You don't know one word you said! Isn't that foolish? Anyway, that didn't sound much like a language.'

That's our problem: We pass judgment on something instead of listening to what God's Word says about it. God even said in Isaiah 28:11, 'With stammering lips and another tongue will he [God] speak unto this people.' So, bless God, if you just stammered, that's the Holy Spirit, too! Accept it and go on with God. Expect more, and he'll give you more."

End quote.

I hope that further helps you,

David

Wow, I've been touched by this thread. I have been struggling to get the connection I felt with God a while ago and want it to be more than before. I don't really think it was an accident that I found this thread. I've yet to feel a pouring in of the Holy Spirit. Yet to speak in tongues. I do know that I give myself to Jesus. I profess it with my mind and mouth. I do hurt though, there is an empty feeling. I don't usually say anything, but I am compelled to thank you for stirring my soul and for your encouragement.
God bless!

Aussiechildofgod said:

Thanks guys...I know what you're saying is true. The doubt that I am feeling though is really serious....I feel like a phoney! Everyone else talks about getting visions, and prophetic words, and its so frustrating becuase I have been told I have a prophetic gift, and that I need to use it, but I dont know how! And most of the time I feel like Im making it up by myself becuase of how much I really really want to step into that gifting! *sigh* And I get so depressed over how many different viewpoints there are, how many doctrines, nad how many different interpretations.....I get so bogged down I dont know whats real and what's not and that scares me! And then I ask God, and I hear nothing....I know what you're saying is true....that Im not making up my tounges when I speak them, but thats easy to think right now!

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Aaah, remember this: I don't work the gift, the gift works me.

deckland said:

Hi Aussiechildofgod,

I read all the replies you got so far, and I have to say I'm amazed.
First let me tell you that I'm not baptized in Holly Spirit, neither I can state that my opinion is the correct one. I'm just a random guy who thinks that:

- If God have chosen to give me His Spirit one day, I know it would be without me trying to speak in tongues before that. It would happen (if God so desires) when I prey, have hands laid on me, or any other moment that i don't expect it. Or at least I hope so!!!

-When I was laid astray from God and stopped living in God, I lived years without Him. I found out that I could speak in tongues quite fluently (especially when was in some emotional state like being unhappy or happy ). I had the same feeling (of making it up myself) you're describing , mainly because I wasn't sure that it's me- i was kinda hoping that this was somehow what was left from my life in God. I now know it's not that! It's me and wouldn't speak in tongues until God shows me (if so He desires) that I'm His.

I hope i haven't confused you - I do not know if your ability to speak is from God or not! I'm just saying that for the last years without God in my life I was able to speak in a tonque - experience I know is not from God, it's me hoping to be still with God. I do not even try to do it know - I hope one day i would be back one of his sons and my Father will bless me with the real think. Amen!

Deckland

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It sounds like you are pretty confused about the gift of tongues. This is possibly because you have received either no teaching or the teaching you have received is shonky. I have an article that might help you sort things out. Here is the link to it. If you have any further questions, PM me and I will be very happy to discuss things with you.

http://personal-communication.net.nz/baptism.htm

...and remember that it is a gift that not all have.
Some have this gift, some others.

MSMPhoenix said:

...and remember that it is a gift that not all have.
Some have this gift, some others.

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It is the gift of tongues for the congregation and interpreting of such which not all have (1 Cor 12). Those gifts in 1 Cor 12 are for the Body, not for the individual.

It is correct that not all are praying in tongues (in spirit), but that is only because they have not received. It is a promise for ALL believers.

Mark 16:17 MKJV And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;

The prerequisite is that we believe it - the promise, that we can speak new tongues. If we don't believe it, we won't do it, of course. Just like if we don't believe in our authority as new creatures in Messiah to cast out devils, we won't do that either, until we believe it.

There are different kinds of speaking in tongues, and it is a misunderstanding that the gift of speaking in tongues mentioned for the assembly in 1 Cor 12 is the same thing as praying in the spirit Jude mentions and Paul mentions all should do in 1 Cor 14, and which he says of himself, "I speak in tongues more than you all.." but then says, "But in the assembly..."

Your servant in Messiah,

David

DavidPresently said:

It is the gift of tongues for the congregation and interpreting of such which not all have (1 Cor 12). Those gifts in 1 Cor 12 are for the Body, not for the individual.

It is correct that not all are praying in tongues (in spirit), but that is only because they have not received. It is a promise for ALL believers.

Mark 16:17 MKJV And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;

The prerequisite is that we believe it - the promise, that we can speak new tongues. If we don't believe it, we won't do it, of course. Just like if we don't believe in our authority as new creatures in Messiah to cast out devils, we won't do that either, until we believe it.

There are different kinds of speaking in tongues, and it is a misunderstanding that the gift of speaking in tongues mentioned for the assembly in 1 Cor 12 is the same thing as praying in the spirit Jude mentions and Paul mentions all should do in 1 Cor 14, and which he says of himself, "I speak in tongues more than you all.." but then says, "But in the assembly..."

Your servant in Messiah,

David

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1 Cor. 12:28-30
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, (**notice these are individual assignments according to gifts)
also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. (**Notice that these are all listed seperately, and not grouped together).

29 Are all apostles?
Are all prophets?
Are all teachers?
Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing?
Do all speak in tongues?
Do all interpret?

**The obvious answer to all of these questions is "no".
You may desire these greater gifts, and God may decide to bless you with them, but it is not a guarantee that all will receive all, or any certain gift.
Remember that sometimes God's answer is "No".

I don't want to get in the middle here but I'll just give my opinion and bow out. I wouldn't worry about how often or how fluent you speak in tongues, when you speak in tongues you are not seeking for tongues, you are seeking for the Holy Ghost, tongues is just part of it, but not the part you are seeking for.

MSMPhoenix said:

1 Cor. 12:28-30
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, (**notice these are individual assignments according to gifts)
also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. (**Notice that these are all listed seperately, and not grouped together).

29 Are all apostles?
Are all prophets?
Are all teachers?
Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing?
Do all speak in tongues?
Do all interpret?

**The obvious answer to all of these questions is "no".
You may desire these greater gifts, and God may decide to bless you with them, but it is not a guarantee that all will receive all, or any certain gift.
Remember that sometimes God's answer is "No".

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The Gift of Different Kinds of Tongues mentioned in 1 Cor 12 is NOT the same thing as praying in the spirit (in tongues). One is for the assembly, and when interpreted is the same function as prophecy. It is an utterance given in one of different kinds of tongues that then is interpreted for public assembly edification, encouragement, or exhortation.

Praying in the spirit, which Paul said all should do, which builds up the spirit man, though not the understanding (natural), isn't for the assembly at all, which is why he was correcting the Corinthians, telling them to speak between themselves and God with such, and not infront of the whole assembly in something no one else understands.

So, you have one gift that comes with the baptism that benefits the individual only. Then you have a gift among the charisma gifts that edifies the whole assembly when used properly in order.

And those two types of tongues are totally different than what the 12 spoke on the day of Pentecost as they preached to the crowd that gathered. Now, all 120 spoke in tongues (prayed in the spirit as the Holy Spirit gave them utterance), before the crowd gathered. Once the crowd gathered, you had the 12 perform a miracle of speech and hearing that could be called the Babel reversal. They weren't just praying in the spirit, they were preaching in tongues, and it wasn't the different kind of tongues in 1 Cor 12 that needed interpreted, it was a message spoken in the known languages of the listeners, meaning it needed no interpretation like the kind of tongues Paul talks about in Corinthians.

All three of these types of tongues speaking have been witnesses in the Pentecostal movement in modern times.

So, all may pray in the spirit, if they will receive by faith, but all will not function in each gift for the ASSEMBLY. (apostles, prophets, gifts of different kinds of tongues, miracles, gifts of healing, administrations, etc). You have to separate what is for the ASSEMBLY which is what Paul is making his retorical question about, and what is for every believers who will believe it as Jesus said in Mark, that all who believe (what he was saying) would speak in new tongues.

David, that was exactly correct. Very scriptural.

A good portion of people nowadays have not seen the orderly operation of the gifts in the assembly, so they don't have a reference point to go by on how they really work. They don't know that there is a difference between praying in tongues individually and speaking in tongues by The Holy Spirit in the assembly. It's sad by true.

Glad to see others who understand the scriptures correctly on this.

Thank you for the clarification.

Just for trivia David, what is the 4th tongue listed in scripture?

Okay, this is one that may be easier to explain in person rather than writing. It's so easy to offend when people can't hear your expression (I hope I'm making sense). I was raised in a wonderful, old fashioned Pentecostal church. The gifts of the spirit (all of them) were evident and the presence of God was powerful. I prayed for two years for the baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues. I was 11 when I started asking God to fill me. I had been prayed over many, many times and wondered why it didn't happen. God showed me at that young age that I had to empty my spirit (my vessel) to be filled by Him. On one July 4th I was sitting in church many, many years ago. No one was around me, and God's spirit came on me and I didn't speak an English word for hours. The ability or ease of speaking in tongues has never left me. I never had a doubt that the words that came out of my mouth were real. When God fills you with His Holy Spirit and you speak in tongues, it's an experience like no other.

Okay, that said, I have also worked at many altars. I've heard many AOG and other Pentecostal churches pray for people and tell them to "say whatever comes into your head". We don't determine when God fills us. He does it in His time, in His way. It isn't stressful. Some people start to feel pressure that they have to say something because people will wonder why they haven't been filled and don't speak in tongues. Nonsense.

I'm not saying whether or not your experience was real or not, none of us should judge you. Just continue seeking the Lord. Focus on living for Him, having a wonderful prayer life, studying His word. He will "fill your heart to overflowing" with His presence. Don't worry about what other's think.

Just my 2 cents. Hope my thoughts came across correctly!!

Dave01 said:

Just for trivia David, what is the 4th tongue listed in scripture?

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The tongue(s) of angels.

1Co 13:1 MKJV Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

But, such is vague in the Scriptures, as the whole subject of angels is, and we aren't told details.

I do know that I've had a different tongue given a few times during spiritual warfare that I spoke to the adversaries (demons). Whether that was a tongue of angels - I'm not sure - it was different than my normal praying in the spirit and different then when I've had the gift of different kinds of tongues come on me in the assembly to speak forth, and it was interpreted. I've also spoken in at least one know language as the Spirit gave utterance before. They were all different, so I'm assuming the warfare times was a "tongue of angels" that the spirits understand.

DavidPresently said:

The tongue(s) of angels.

1Co 13:1 MKJV Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

But, such is vague in the Scriptures, as the whole subject of angels is, and we aren't told details.

I do know that I've had a different tongue given a few times during spiritual warfare that I spoke to the adversaries (demons). Whether that was a tongue of angels - I'm not sure - it was different than my normal praying in the spirit and different then when I've had the gift of different kinds of tongues come on me in the assembly to speak forth, and it was interpreted. I've also spoken in at least one know language as the Spirit gave utterance before. They were all different, so I'm assuming the warfare times was a "tongue of angels" that the spirits understand.

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Nope, nope, nope.

The tongue of angels is our prayer language or the langauge prompted by The Holy Spirit in the assembly.

By scripture, you would have these 4,..

-Praying in tongues by our spirit,

-Speaking in tongues by The Holy Spirit (assembly)

-Speaking in 'known' tongues (acts 2)

-Singing in tongues

We have had people sing in tongues in the assembly and interpret it. It caught me off guard at first, but The Holy Spirit witnessed to it. True singing in tongues by The Holy Spirit, not the type where you put a tune behind your prayer language, but the type when The Holy Spirit is activating the gift through you in the assembly,...is beautiful.