Struggling with sin

[Mr_E]

This is also in the General Struggles section, but I was advised to post it here as well...

I am struggling with something I read in my Bible and I am hoping to get some good Christian advice. I think I know the answer, but I want to be sure that I am not misreading the Bible so that it says what I want to say (instead of what it truely means).

Galatians 6:19-21 says...


Quote:
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Reading this makes it sound like you are not a true Christian if you are guilty of any of the sins listed. But if you look back at Chapters 7 and 8 of Romans the and put that into context with the above verses from Galations, it sounds like a slightly different message...

In Romans 7:14-20 Paul says:


Quote:
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7:25...


Quote:
25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
And Romans 8:5...


Quote:
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
So if I am reading the verses in Romans right, Paul is saying that he too struggles with sin.

He is saying that if we do like want to do the sinful things we do then we are not guilty of the sins we have committed because Christ died so that our sinful natures would also die.

It also sounds like there are times when he acts in his sinful nature (not just sinning, but acting in his sinful nature, which may or may not be worse than simply sinning).

In conclusion, it sounds like he is saying that if in our hearts we desire to live by the spirit and hate the sinful nature, then we are not guilty when in moments of weakness we fall victum to our sinful nature.

But then when I go back and read Galatians 6:19-21 again, I begin to question my conclusion...


Quote:
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I have to admit that in moments of weakness I fall victum to some of the things listed above. For example, when my wife and I get into an argument sometimes I yell things that I don't mean because I let my anger take control. This would be an example of a fit of rage. They are not things that I am proud of, or things that I live for. In fact, they are things that I hate. But it almost sounds like I am living in the sinful nature when I do those things, and thus I will not inherit the kingdom of God as I am.

So, which conclusion right...

If in our hearts we desire to live by the spirit and hate the sinful nature, then we are not guilty when in moments of weakness we fall victum to our sinful nature.

Or

If we are guilty of the acts/desires of the sinful nature, even if we hate them, does that mean we will not inherit the kingdom of God?

 

[dimwhitt]

it sounds like you have the right idea
we continue to sin but we are not to LIVE there

our sinful nature still prodes us to react and respond to different situations sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly
there is no such thing as absolute sinlessness in this life
but that is never an excuse for sin

 

[Mr_E]

Thanks for you reponse! It is reassuring to read what you said.

I guess part of what I struggle with is the specific things it says. It lists specific sins. I know that nobody is without sin, but it almost sounds like he is saying we are not allow to committ those particular sins as Christians.

That cannot be right though because Paul talks a lot about our freedom. We are not under the Law if live by the spirtual nature, but if we were not allowed to committ certain sins as Christians then we would still be under the Law (right?).

It's like I'm under spiritual warfare. I think I know the Truth on this subject, but I keep having doubts about how I am interpreting those verses. Just hearing how other Christians view these verses will help me a great deal. I think this is why fellowship is so important. We have to help each other stay on the right track.

 

[heron]

Lately I have been separating the Kingdom of God in my mind from heaven. I think of the Kingdom as the unseen plane where spiritual things take place.

God lets us in on the activity if He can trust us with it -- not blabbing information He gives us, not making fun of those involved, not ignoring His instructions, not making an offense of the faith.

In this context, it's not that He won't forgive us and rescue us, but He's not about to entrust us with assignments until we appear interested in the outcome.


Looking back at Galations, verse 1 says "Brothers, if a man is overtaken in some deviation..."

Rom 13:13Let us walk/conduct ourselves becomingly, as in the day, not in carousings and drunkennesses, not in co-habitation and lustful acts, not in fighting and envy.(That sounds like a conscious, continual decision without remorse.)

 

[sinneD]

Hey Brother..

All of us have a sinful nature.. each one of us fall short of the glory of God, and deserve judgement.. but because of the finished work of Christ, that penalty has been paid in full, and we are now fully entitled to the kingdom of God..

Now, some of key words in all that are:

• FINISHED work of Christ
• Paid in FULL
• FULLY ENTITLED

Scripture doesn't teach that we will now be free from sin... on the contrary, it teaches in many places that as long as we are on this earth, we are subject to a sinful and fallen body.. the difference is that THE PENALTY for that sin has been paid (FULLY paid)....

As a Christian, you will sin.. but through Christ, your have already inherited the kingdom of God.

Be At Peace, My Friend..

Dennis

 

[Michael2308]

Well put Dennis

 

[koban4max]

Hey Brother..

All of us have a sinful nature.. each one of us fall short of the glory of God, and deserve judgement.. but because of the finished work of Christ, that penalty has been paid in full, and we are now fully entitled to the kingdom of God..

Now, some of key words in all that are:

• FINISHED work of Christ
• Paid in FULL
• FULLY ENTITLED

Scripture doesn't teach that we will now be free from sin... on the contrary, it teaches in many places that as long as we are on this earth, we are subject to a sinful and fallen body.. the difference is that THE PENALTY for that sin has been paid (FULLY paid)....

As a Christian, you will sin.. but through Christ, your have already inherited the kingdom of God.

Be At Peace, My Friend..

Dennis

'
Yeah, but lord didn't say you can sin again.

 

[sinneD]

'
Yeah, but lord didn't say you can sin again.

Of course not.. but we know that we will.. and God knows that we will.. that's the "good news" of the gospel.. that it doesn't matter.. the debt has been paid... ALL OF IT - past, present and future

 

[koban4max]

Of course not.. but we know that we will.. and God knows that we will.. that's the "good news" of the gospel.. that it doesn't matter.. the debt has been paid... ALL OF IT - past, present and future

Oh really? I guess it's okay to put myself in a situation where i'll sin and ask to protect me from sinning, huh?

 

[Mr_E]

Thank you all very much! It is good to read what you guys had to say. I feel much better. It is hard to imagine how sinners like us could possibly deserve such a forgiving and loving God! Every now and then I go through these kinds of struggles, but once God gets me through them I come back more faithful than before (and I believe that this time He worked in large part through you guys who gave me such wonderful advice)!

Edit:

'
Yeah, but lord didn't say you can sin again.

But Peter who was one of the original 12, who Jesus called the Rock which He would build His Church on, who was promised the Holy Spirit by Jesus, and who preaches in Jesus' name says in 1 Peter 2:16...

Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

Clearly, he is referring to our freedom from sin, though he does warn us not to take advantage of it.

 

[FenderElctrc]

World Famous Verse:

John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here's another good one:

Proverbs 24:16:
For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[Johnnz]

The verses in Galatians and elsewhere refer more to the unrestrained lifestyles of non Christians in NT times. We don't ignore them of course, but that is their context, people living by a different set of rules. So, we may do some of those things on occasions but that is not our lifestyle.

And. heaven is yours. Jesus made sure of that.

John
NZ

 

[david1988]

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 7:25...

This is one of my favorite verses in the Bible. Paul so clearly illustrates that as a Christian will still wrestle with sin. Becoming a Christian doesn't mean that we will no longer fall into sin. But rather when we do fall into sin we will feel miserable about it. This is a key point between a Christian and non-christian. When we sin we recognize we've sinned thru the conviction of the Holy Spirit and immediately feel bad about it and repent. Whereas a non-christian can sin and never think twice about it.

I guess my question to you is this: "Where do you think Paul is today?" I believe he is in the company of our Lord and Savior.
And as we read his words some 2000 years later, we can see that he was a sinner, and struggled with his flesh just like everyone does today.

 

[EternallyPierced]

This is also in the General Struggles section, but I was advised to post it here as well...

I am struggling with something I read in my Bible and I am hoping to get some good Christian advice. I think I know the answer, but I want to be sure that I am not misreading the Bible so that it says what I want to say (instead of what it truely means).

Galatians 6:19-21 says...


Quote:
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Take a very close look at the wording "those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." The question is "What does it mean to "live like this"?"

Lets put this into an analogy: Think of a house. This house represents sin. The doors of this house are open and it beckons for you to come inside. Despite our best efforts, we sometimes find ourselves entering into that house. Once we realize we that we have just entered into this house (sin) the question is: Do we decide to live there and continue to live like that or do we say this is not right and run out of that house as fast as we can?

We are all prone to sinful things but thankfully we are not slaves to them (Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.) Don't think that just because your saved and that you will always be forgiven that it is alright to sin now and then or even once (Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!)

Sinning is inevitable. Despite our best efforts to avoid sinful situations, eventually we will, whether by thought or action. The key is what you do when you realize you are sinning. Do you keep on sinning or do you immediately ask for forgiveness and pray that God will help you overcome it.

Read Romans 5 & 6. It makes Romans 7 a lot more understandable.

I hope this helped and that you have a blessed day!

 

[wonderous]

Personally i too stuggle greatly with sin

Look at this passage

NIV
Romans Chapter 2 v:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God;
18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;
19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark,
20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—
21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?
27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

As Christians we all know the Law. Most of us could even quote specific verses that tell us not to commit adultery, but if we still do it then as verse 12 says we will be judged by the Law. God's death on the cross cannot be used as an excuse for sinning. I'm sure at many times in church the pastor gives an altar call and we all run up and by the end of the service we suddenly feel "charged up" and we feel like serving God, and we tell ourselves we hate our past sins. It's good that we feel confident and that we hate sin, but we cannot say that "Oh, yesterday at service I hated sin, but i had just sinned when i went to porn sites" and convince yourself "but I hate my sin yesterday, and it's only a day ago that I desired to avoid sin, and that desire is definitely still in me today..I'm sure God will forgive me like he did yesterday!" because we tend to think like what Mr_E implied from Romans 8:5:

In conclusion, it sounds like he is saying that if in our hearts we desire to live by the spirit and hate the sinful nature, then we are not guilty when in moments of weakness we fall victum to our sinful nature.

Romans 8:5 is a powerful verse, telling us that as a Christian we all have to stuggle with sin. It must be a REAL struggle. And one must desire very greatly to avoid sin to say that we're not guilty of sin. I believe we must take this verse seriously, and desire very greatly to avoid sin(it's not ordinary desires, it's a lifelong serious desire, and it cannot be like the half-desiring kind of feeling.

I find that picturing God like your best friend is the best way to feel this desire. Just think of a very good friend, whom you cannot bear betraying by gossiping that he's fat. You wont ever say he's fat not even whisper it to someone else or think such a thought because you guys have a very intimate friendship. How did you get your friend to trust that you'll meet him every weekend? Because after years of doing that your friend believes youll visit him at 10:00pm every sunday even if you're a little late he believes you would still come. See he gives you the "Buffer time" because he trusts you, and this trust is not ordinary but a very strong trust because not only did you say you would meet him, but your actions proved you to be trustworthy bcoz you went over everytime(unless youre busy and he trust you are honest). So in the same way, as much as you would hate ruining a life-time friendship with someone you should feel the same way when you are about to sin, for Jesus' sake. This is one way which i practice obeying God

Another way is to see him similar to the first. For instance, A lonewolf(Assuming he's a Christian) without friends feels so lost in this world that he would rather die than live. He goes around asking others to be his friends but they dont seem to care about him, and one day he thinks that nobody likes him and nobody cares for him and hates himself(Looks, personalitywise). Then he remembers God. (Put yourself in his shoes) God was there to comfort him, to love him, to console him, and to take his pain away by His Love. Personally, whenever I get lost I cry to God without thinking why i cry to him in the first place. Reason why you cry to him is because he's earned your complete trust, he's the only one who does not show favouritism and is so willing to console us when we are in bad times. And the one you disobey is the one who loves you so much, thinking back, everytime I sinned and seek God's forgiveness he forgave me, although my sins hurt him so badly. And God never sins, and never betrayed me but i betrayed him. How bad should we feel! Where else could you find a friend to faithful? Where could you find someone who could love you so much? Since God loves you so much, wouldn't you love him back, and not betray him anymore??
--> Picturing God in this way has helped me so much, and i need to share this with you so you can see God as a person instead of one who is invisible and as one whom no one has seen.. Imagine God as your best friend today, and open up your eyes(none of us have never seen God before, and we tend to think he can't see us. And we have never physically seen him get hurt or upset. PICTURE GOD AS A BEING, and you'll see the reality! This has greatly helped me to stop sinning!

 

[Mr_E]

^I don't think anybody here is trying to say that we should just live our lives and not do are best to avoid sinning (I know that is not what I was trying to say). It wouldn't be struggling with sin if that were the case. But when we do make a mistake there is Hope for us all!

 

[whit87]

The fact that you struggle with this is a sure sign of your faith, repentance, and dedication to our Lord Jesus Christ. I, like you and most Christians, struggle with the same fears and questions you are expressing. Do not despair, the lord is merciful and slow to anger, faithful to forgive all those who seek it. I pray that you find you find peace.

 

[soldierundercommand]

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It's saying hear that if you are IN Christ, you are already walking in the Spirit. This is what Paul was trying to convey to the Galatian church which was being besieged with those preaching law-keeping (circumcision) (which is WALKING or practicing in the flesh).

If you go down to verse 21, Paul identifies who these people are....they are those who PRACTICE these sins as a lifestyle.

"24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."


We, who are walking in the Spirit, still have tendencies to sin in these areas, but if we are in God's word daily, fellowshipping and in communication with God (all practices of walking in the Spirit), then the sin will go no further into practice as it does with those under the law. Remember that the law increases sin, and this is what Paul was straining to teach the church, that IN Christ they were free from the law which could only produce death, but to use the liberty Christ gained for us to-

"13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

That's why we need to feed on daily manna and be renewed each day so that we exhibit-

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."

*********

And just an aside to a comment you made to another regarding Jesus building the church on Peter the rock....Jesus said that He was building the church on the TRUTH that Peter was given to acknowledge by the Father, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[REPHAIAHPEDAHEL]

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, [14] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

You are already in the kingdom of God but if you are struggling of any of those things in Galatians 6, it's because you are under the law!

1 Corinthians 15:56-57 NKJV
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Realise that you are under the grace of God, concentrate on that.

Romans 6:14 NLT
Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

Romans 5:17 NLT
For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

 

[Inkachu]

So if I am reading the verses in Romans right, Paul is saying that he too struggles with sin.

Of course he did. We all do. Every single person who has ever lived or will ever live, will struggle with sin.

He is saying that if we do like want to do the sinful things we do then we are not guilty of the sins we have committed because Christ died so that our sinful natures would also die.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. We are responsible for all of our choices and actions. We are definitely "guilty" of any sin we commit, in that nobody but US is responsible and accountable for it. But we are not "condemned" if we're in Christ, because He took the punishment and paid for all our sins. In other words, we're in the wrong, but Jesus takes the punishment for us.

In conclusion, it sounds like he is saying that if in our hearts we desire to live by the spirit and hate the sinful nature, then we are not guilty when in moments of weakness we fall victum to our sinful nature.

Nope, sorry. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned you are in your desires to live right. If you sin, it's on your account, and you have to deal with the guilt, conviction, consequences, and/or discipline from God. But the punishment, the payment, the thing needed to make you right with God again is already done through Jesus. That's why you don't need to go out and slaughter a lamb like believers did before Jesus' death. A sacrifice is required to pay for sins; Jesus was our sacrifice once and for all.

But don't confuse payment/punishment with responsibility/accountability, which is what you seem to be doing.

So, which conclusion right...

If in our hearts we desire to live by the spirit and hate the sinful nature, then we are not guilty when in moments of weakness we fall victum to our sinful nature.

Or

If we are guilty of the acts/desires of the sinful nature, even if we hate them, does that mean we will not inherit the kingdom of God?

You're not allowing the third (and correct) option. That is, we ALL will occasionally mess up and fall down. We are fully responsible (aka guilty) of our own actions, and only through repentance and confession are we absolved of them. In that moment, we're forgiven, and the condemnation is taken by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and our "account" with God is restored. The verse that refers to people not inheriting the kingdom of God is talking about a sinful lifestyle that is ongoing and unrepentant. Not a single act of weakness that we immediately repent of and avoid doing again.