Struggling to understand

[janejenkins1]

Hello guys, I am an atheist and I having been reading alot lately, I have been reading into some of the bible also. I am been talking to alot of christians, and I am convinced that I will never be able to worship god because it violates my ethics and morality

I am planning to read the entire bible along with other scriptures and holy texts to see if my views are changed.

So far I have come to the conclusion that god has done more evil deeds than good, the bible and other holy text's are full of implausibilities and contradictions, and I am baffled that so many people can worship god and fully believe what is written in the holy texts to be true.

I am not trying to start a war on the forums!! I am wanting your honest opinion christians because I am really trying to comprehend.

I have a few questions for you christians out there.

If god is a good god and all knowing (he knows everything that is goin to happen) then why does he create hell, the devil and most importantly me? Why would god create me, when he knows that I am going to become an atheist. Does he create me just for fun so he can watch me be tortured in hell for eternity? This does not sound like a good god. Also god created evil,

Isaiah 45:7. “I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things”.

How can you christians out there believe that he is a good god when he has ordered so many people to their deaths for much menial sins? (violating the laws of hospitality is an example)

Ok think of it this way, if you had a child (as Im sure many of you do) am that child were too become a lie to you (a sin punishable by burning in hell for eternity) would you send that child to burn in hell? What about if that same child were to hurt you? Then would you send that child to hell? And god is supposed to be infinitely more compassionate then humans, yet he will send one of his creations to burn in hell for eternity. Now there is the arguement that he will forgive anyone who asks for it. Well pose the same question. If you had a child and it lied to you, would you threaten to send it to hell unless it asked for forgiveness, yet it would not ask for forgiveness. Then would you be able to send it to burn in damnation for all eternity?

If god was truely a loving and compassionate being then he would have never created hell, evil, sickness, death, ect.

No logical, UNBIASED person could look at all of the facts and come to the conclusion that god, if he were to exist, is a good god.


2. Why are certain verses are taught in church, and others are not because they portray god as an evil god. People pick out verses from the bible they like and give no creedence to the others.

For example homosexuality is an abomination, I see good faithful christians yelling hateful remarks to homosexuals about how they are going to hell. Well the bible also says working in saturday, shaving, eating shrimp, and having tatoos are abominations. People want to use the bible as an excuse to spread hate, towards the homosexuals, the jews, and countless other peoples. If all the text in the bible is the word of god, and he never lies, then all the christians who ever ate shrimp, worked on saturday, shaved and have tatoos must repent or thier all loving god is going to condemn them to hell for all eternity

Now if god was all knowing why would he have created man handed down the bible if he knew that people would be killing in his name?

What is your reasons for having faith in this God? And I do not mean to be harsh, please do not say that I am attacking your religion because I am just stating what I have read/ and my opinion. I have talked to a bunch of christians and asked them questions, they always say I am belittling them, I do not like the fact that christians take every logical assumption about their religion as an attack, atleast the ones I know

 

[Angeloffire]

Why did God create evil?

Because He is trying to create sons....not robots. If you only had good to pick from, how can you have a will and how can you choose him and be a person?

God is perfect and without flaw. He also is not human. We are human, because we have sin....He is without sin and is complete Truth.

If we are to join Him and live in harmony with Him, then we have to be like Him ......that is why Jesus came.

Jesus was planned before the world began and God knew that man would fall and none of this is a surprise to Him.

Only those who reject love, truth, kindness, wisdom, compassion, mercy, etc. will go to hell, because this is who He is.

If you give your live to Jesus....it means that you live for all that is good and true. It means you die to your own self as the one who decides and knows and instead the Holy Spirit/God leads and guides your knowing.

It means that from now on you live for Truth, not a world that a person creates to make him or herself look good or justify their own thinking.

Instead, you repent (turn from wrong thinking) and you give your life to Truth/God and you ask Truth into your heart and He covers your sins (wrong thinking acted on) and pays the price for those errored ways, which was death or separation from Life.

Blessings,

AOF

 

[MrDave]

Dear friend:

You have asked many questions that are quite challenging and there are answers to all of them, but I will not attempt to answer them.

What I want to do is to suggest some things to help in your search for truth and God because I feel that some of the places your looking will lead you astray.

If you are serious about finding God, then keep in mind that "for the LORD searcheth all hearts and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts, if THOU SEEK HIM, he WILL BE FOUND of thee, but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."

First, I believe there is only one "HOLY TEXT", not many. The BIBLE stands apart from all others. Only the BIBLE claims to be the "inspired words of God" and can back that statement up. I don't believe that the Koran or Hindu scriptures or any other text makes that claim and can back it up with evidence.

How can I make that claim, you ask? Simply, God himself set the standard for knowing when it was God's words. The standard must be PERFECTION. But there are errors in the Bible, you say. I say ARE THERE ERRORS REALLY? I don't believe there are. I believe that when God originally spoke and the prophets wrote it down the first time, IT WAS PERFECT without ERROR or contradiction. If you did a study of how the BIBLE we have today got to us and it's a incredible study. Then you might understand how there are verses that could be questionable, but even today there are no outright errors that can prove the BIBLE false. I believe it can be shown in all other "holy text" outright errors.

"But the prophet, who shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die....When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deut.18:20,22; see also Deut.13:33).

If it really is God speaking then there can be NO ERROR. Historically, scientifically, etc. etc.

Now, can historical errors be found in any of those other texts? If so, then they are not of God and will not lead you to God. If those text have plain scientific errors, they are not of God and should not be considered.

Point 2 about holy texts. God does not contradict himself. If one book says go left and another says go right, then we must be careful in judging both books as being from God.

Point 3 about holy texts. Only the BIBLE has made predictions into the future that have always come to pass. No other book has made accurate prediction concerning future. Even one failure in this respect proves not from God. Now true not all of the BIBLES predictions have happened yet, but keep watching some of those are happening today. Many are still off in the future, but there are many many predictions made that did occur just as the BIBLE said they would. If God was right about those then He will be right about the others. NO MISTAKES OR ERRORS by GOD.

SECOND: Don't judge God by people. Don't mistake what people have done in the name of God as doing God's will. Yes, there has been much evil or harm done by those calling themselves "Christians" or by organizations(church's) that called themselves "Christian". All I can say here is not to judge GOD by what people have done in the name of God. There have been many and there will be many more who call themselves "Christians" who are not.

"20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:

Even true believers have done terrible things that were never God's will. All people are sinners and have a sin nature, even those who are true believers.

THIRDLY: Yes there are things in BIBLE hard to understand and seemingly it looks like God was doing evil. But was He? Some of the OT laws seem extremely harsh by our standards today, yet were they?? God says two things about this that I want to leave with you.

"28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose." Romans 8

I'm putting these veres out of order, from Isaiah 55.
8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

"6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Friend, be careful in judging God by human standards. FAITH is seeing things through God's eyes.

I hope this helps, keep seeking God.
GOD IS LOVE and LOVES YOU and IS REACHING OUT TO YOU.

 

[Emmy]

Dear janejenkins1. God is Love, and God made us in His image. Everything God made is GOOD, and where the Light, which God made, does not reach, ie Outer Darkness, there is Dark. Where there is Peace, there is War also. Where there is Love, there are also places without love. God is Love, and where God is not, there is no love. You say that you are struggling to understand, jane, and if you are sincerely trying to, you need to ask God Himself. We are promised in the Bible, which is God`s Word to Man, " Ask and you will be answered." Read the Gospels first, 4 disciples tell us the truth about Jesus, and if they slightly vary, it is because 4 disciples tell the same truth, yet always seen from their point of view. And we know how differently 2 or 3 people describe the same scene of happening. The O.T. is the History of the Israelites and their Prophets, and God was establishing His Kingdom amidst them. They were surrounded by Heathen Tribes and small Nations who were being led by their cruel gods. Here again, jane, different people describing the truth as they saw it. Only when Jesus came to Earth, did He show us God really; a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back again. I say this humbly and kindly. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[MyKidsDaddy]

To janejenkins1,
May the God of the universe accept your quest for understanding Him. May He show you the way.

I know that one should NOT take single verses and base their whole thesis of belief on a verse or two. But that being said, I'll attach 2 verses. Hebrews was my starting point about 2 years ago to 'reconnect' with my beliefs. From their I went back to the beginning and started reading the stories of the Old Testament.
May God show you the way.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen."
Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that seek after Him."

In Christian peace,

MKD

 

[PastorJim]

I am planning to read the entire bible along with other scriptures and holy texts to see if my views are changed.

That's fine, but just remember that the books of the Bible are not in order so, if you just sit down and try to read Genesis through Revelation like it's a novel, you're just going to get confused.

So far I have come to the conclusion that god has done more evil deeds than good

"Evil" by who's standard?

the bible and other holy text's are full of implausibilities and contradictions

OK. Give me your top three contradictions.

and I am baffled that so many people can worship god and fully believe what is written in the holy texts to be true.

I've been studying the Bible for a little over twenty years now and have been preaching it for a little more than ten, and I am more convinced than ever that it is the true, inspired, inerrant, word of God.

If god is a good god and all knowing (he knows everything that is goin to happen) then why does he create hell, the devil and most importantly me? Why would god create me, when he knows that I am going to become an atheist. Does he create me just for fun so he can watch me be tortured in hell for eternity? This does not sound like a good god.

According to the book of Romans, God created you to be an ambassador for Him to be an example of His glory to all of creation.

Also god created evil,

Have you ever studied a foreign language? If you have, then you know that some words and phrases translate awkwardly into other languages. This is often the case translating Hebrew into English because the Hebrew language uses so much poetic imagery and metaphor.

In addition, in hermeneutics (the science of interpreting the scriptures) there is a principle called the analogy of scripture. This doesn't mean that the Bible is an analogy, although there are analogies in the Bible. It means that you can't just read one verse at a time, but must take that one verse in the context of all of the other verses.

If you were to dig a little deeper into this verse you would find that it isn't that God created evil, but that the existence of good, which comes from the very presence of God, necessitates the existence of evil because in order for good to be good, there has to be something to compare good to.

How can you christians out there believe that he is a good god when he has ordered so many people to their deaths for much menial sins? (violating the laws of hospitality is an example)

I can't think of a time when God ever commanded that somebody be killed for "violating the rules of hospitality". I don't even know where the Bible mentions any such rules.

The reason God takes sin so seriously is that, like I said, God created us to be ambassadors for Him and display His character to all of creation.

That is why we become angry at injustice: because God is angry at injustice. We have compassion because God is compassionate. We love because God is loving. We create because God is creative.

That's how God created us, but then, because of sin, our nature was corrupted and now we sin. But when we sin, we make God out to be a sinner.

Just as we have all of those characteristics above because God has them, because of sin, we have characteristics that God does not have and when we sin, we represent Him as having those traits.

So, when we lie, we're representing God as a liar. When we steal, we represent God as a thief. We we commit adultery, we're telling everyone that God is an adulterer.

God is none of these things. He is holy and righteous and just and completely without sin. When we sin, we slander Him, His authority, and His character. God takes that very seriously and He should take it seriously. To commit a crime against the King is treason against the crown.

Ok think of it this way, if you had a child (as Im sure many of you do) am that child were too become a lie to you (a sin punishable by burning in hell for eternity) would you send that child to burn in hell? What about if that same child were to hurt you? Then would you send that child to hell?

No, for two reasons.

The first is that I do not have the moral authority.
The second is that I do not have the legal authority.

And god is supposed to be infinitely more compassionate then humans, yet he will send one of his creations to burn in hell for eternity.

God is compassionate, but He is also holy and righteous, which means that He must have a moral code, and just, which means that He must punish violations of that code.

God has shown His compassion in giving Christ as a ransom for us. God gives everyone an opportunity to be saved. It is only after they reject God's compassion that God shows them His wrath.

If god was truely a loving and compassionate being then he would have never created hell, evil, sickness, death, ect.

And a God who would not punish evil is not a good God. Please read what the Bible says. Romans 5 tells us that God did not create sickness and death, but that sickness and death are a result of sin.

No logical, UNBIASED person could look at all of the facts and come to the conclusion that god, if he were to exist, is a good god.

I disagree. When I see the BIble's account of Christ's atonement on behalf of sinners, I can't see anything but a good God.

Imagine a group of villagers who commit treason against the king. They are tried and found guilty of treason and sentenced to death. On the day of their execution, the scaffolds are ready and the prisoners are brought out and led up the steps.

Hoods are placed over their heads and the hangman readies the ropes around their necks. He walks over to the lever that will send them falling to their deaths.

"We're guilty of this terrible crime but we appeal to the graciousness and mercy of the king", they plead.

As the hangman places his hand on the lever, a voice calls out "STOP!" from the back of the green. Everyone turns, stunned, to see the king, himself.

The crowd parts as the king comes forward. "Take them down",

As the hangman removes the nooses, the king removes his royal robes, only to reveal that he has changed from his fine clothes to the rags of a common peasant.

As the prisoners are led back down the steps, the king climbs up the steps to the gallows.

He addresses the crowd and says, "These men have sinned against me, but I am a good king and have heard their pleas for mercy. However, their crime is still worthy of death."

The people in the crowd are confused by this. "If the crime is worthy of death, why did he let them go", they ask one another.

He turns to the hangman and says, "the noose, sir". The hangman, confused by this asks, "The noose, Your Highness"?

"Yes, please place the noose around my neck".

Hesitantly, the hangman does so and the king addresses the crowd again.

"I have heard the prisoners' please for mercy and absolve them completely of their crime. However, I have decreed that an act of treason against the authority of the crown must be punished by death and I must honor my decree. Because I cannot go against my decree and have pledged to absolve these men, there is only one alternative: my life for theirs".

He then turns to the hangman as the stunned subjects look on. "Whenever you are ready, hangman".

With a mighty WHUMP!, the trap opens and the king falls to his death.

Is this a good king?

2. Why are certain verses are taught in church, and others are not because they portray god as an evil god. People pick out verses from the bible they like and give no creedence to the others.

I disagree. I believe most preachers try very hard to preach and teach the Bible comprehensively, but the Bible is a very big book.

For example homosexuality is an abomination, I see good faithful christians yelling hateful remarks to homosexuals about how they are going to hell.

What makes you think they're Christians? The Bible says that if we hate our neighbor, Christ is not in us.

Well the bible also says working in saturday, shaving, eating shrimp, and having tatoos are abominations.

The difference is that those things were a part of the Old Covenant law to the Jews. The Old Covenant and it's laws were fulfilled and no longer apply to Christians.

The Bible's prohibition against homosexuality is a part of the moral law, which is still in effect. Long story short, that's why the prohibition against homosexuality is repeated in the New Testament, but the OC laws you mentioned are not.

People want to use the bible as an excuse to spread hate, towards the homosexuals, the jews, and countless other peoples.

Then blame the people, not the Bible.

If all the text in the bible is the word of god, and he never lies, then all the christians who ever ate shrimp, worked on saturday, shaved and have tatoos must repent or thier all loving god is going to condemn them to hell for all eternity

Please take a minute to read the book of Hebrews, specifically chapter 8. It helps to explain why these things do not apply to Christians

Now if god was all knowing why would he have created man handed down the bible if he knew that people would be killing in his name?

You mean the same Bible that instructs them not to murder people?

What is your reasons for having faith in this God?

Because I am convinced that the Bible is true.

 

[janejenkins1]

Ok thank you for those who responded, I am going to try and read more of the bible and other holy texts

EDIT pastor jim I missed your responses but I just read it thanks for all the answers, im gunna try to answer all yours too.

This is interesting

If all the text in the bible is the word of god, and he never lies, then all the christians who ever ate shrimp, worked on saturday, shaved and have tatoos must repent or thier all loving god is going to condemn them to hell for all eternity

Please take a minute to read the book of Hebrews, specifically chapter 8. It helps to explain why these things do not apply to Christians

I am going to try to read that chapter thanks

Now if god was all knowing why would he have created man handed down the bible if he knew that people would be killing in his name?
​

You mean the same Bible that instructs them not to murder people?

Yes I mean all the holy texts, I am struggling to grasp why god would create people (specifically those he knows are going to be condemned to hell)? To be on this earth for less than 100 years and then tortured in hell for all eternity, when god knows that is it going to happen. why would he create these people? They are doomed to being in hell forever.

People want to use the bible as an excuse to spread hate, towards the homosexuals, the jews, and countless other peoples.
​

Then blame the people, not the Bible.

I do blame the people, Im not trying to blame the bible sorry if it comes off like that. I blame all the people who killed jews in the crusade, in WWII, and all the people who give hate to homosexuals. The problem I see though is these people were thought to be good christians. Didn't god hand down the people to man so they could follow him or do good by him? The words in the bible has lead to so many conflicts and deaths I am finding it hard to understand why god would knowingly hand down the bible when he knew it would be the root of so many deaths/wars. Did he believe that the good the bible caused outweighs the bad it caused? I have no idea

For example homosexuality is an abomination, I see good faithful christians yelling hateful remarks to homosexuals about how they are going to hell.
​

What makes you think they're Christians? The Bible says that if we hate our neighbor, Christ is not in us.

They said they were christians, I guess I need to be more careful identifying christians

2. Why are certain verses are taught in church, and others are not because they portray god as an evil god. People pick out verses from the bible they like and give no creedence to the others.
​

I disagree. I believe most preachers try very hard to preach and teach the Bible comprehensively, but the Bible is a very big book.

I have only been to church 3 times, as a child, so I do not have anything to back this up except my opinion. I am wondering does the church really teached that homosexuality is an abomination? The preachers actually get up and say that to everyone, including young children?

Imagine a group of villagers who commit treason against the king. They are tried and found guilty of treason and sentenced to death. On the day of their execution, the scaffolds are ready and the prisoners are brought out and led up the steps.

Hoods are placed over their heads and the hangman readies the ropes around their necks. He walks over to the lever that will send them falling to their deaths.

"We're guilty of this terrible crime but we appeal to the graciousness and mercy of the king", they plead.

As the hangman places his hand on the lever, a voice calls out "STOP!" from the back of the green. Everyone turns, stunned, to see the king, himself.

The crowd parts as the king comes forward. "Take them down",

As the hangman removes the nooses, the king removes his royal robes, only to reveal that he has changed from his fine clothes to the rags of a common peasant.

As the prisoners are led back down the steps, the king climbs up the steps to the gallows.

He addresses the crowd and says, "These men have sinned against me, but I am a good king and have heard their pleas for mercy. However, their crime is still worthy of death."

The people in the crowd are confused by this. "If the crime is worthy of death, why did he let them go", they ask one another.

He turns to the hangman and says, "the noose, sir". The hangman, confused by this asks, "The noose, Your Highness"?

"Yes, please place the noose around my neck".

Hesitantly, the hangman does so and the king addresses the crowd again.

"I have heard the prisoners' please for mercy and absolve them completely of their crime. However, I have decreed that an act of treason against the authority of the crown must be punished by death and I must honor my decree. Because I cannot go against my decree and have pledged to absolve these men, there is only one alternative: my life for theirs".

He then turns to the hangman as the stunned subjects look on. "Whenever you are ready, hangman".

With a mighty WHUMP!, the trap opens and the king falls to his death.

Is this a good king?

Interesting story, I am not sure what to think. On one side he seems like a good king posting the "eye for an eye" law with makes the murders punishable by death. But on the other side of it he is letting a murder go. Which brings me to another very incomprehensible part of the bible, for me atleast. Basically any sin is forgivable if you repent, so that takes away the severity of crimes doesn't it? Would you want to live in a society were you can lie about your weight, and be punished to hang like someone who murdered another person? But yet you can both repent and have no punishment? It seems fair to the liar but what about the murder, he could very well murder again. Also would the hangman be commiting a sin by hanging/killing someone?

If god was truely a loving and compassionate being then he would have never created hell, evil, sickness, death, ect.
​

And a God who would not punish evil is not a good God. Please read what the Bible says. Romans 5 tells us that God did not create sickness and death, but that sickness and death are a result of sin.

I am not sure what to think because when god created adam and eve he knew that they were going to commit original sin, so when he created adam and eve he created evil too. You said that all of the acts that humans do represent god, so when they sinned so did he, when they created the evil, so did he. That is really how Im seeing it, which book should I read to get a better understanding of this

And god is supposed to be infinitely more compassionate then humans, yet he will send one of his creations to burn in hell for eternity.
​

God is compassionate, but He is also holy and righteous, which means that He must have a moral code, and just, which means that He must punish violations of that code.

God has shown His compassion in giving Christ as a ransom for us. God gives everyone an opportunity to be saved. It is only after they reject God's compassion that God shows them His wrath.

God does not give everyone a chance to be saved, when he creates a certain man (who later dies and is condemned) he is omnipotent, all powerful, he knows that the person he is making is going to be condemned, yet he still creates the person giving them no chance of salvation.

 

[nhislove]

Hello guys, I am an atheist and I having been reading alot lately, I have been reading into some of the bible also. I am been talking to alot of christians, and I am convinced that I will never be able to worship god because it violates my ethics and morality

I am planning to read the entire bible along with other scriptures and holy texts to see if my views are changed.

So far I have come to the conclusion that god has done more evil deeds than good, the bible and other holy text's are full of implausibilities and contradictions, and I am baffled that so many people can worship god and fully believe what is written in the holy texts to be true.

I am not trying to start a war on the forums!! I am wanting your honest opinion christians because I am really trying to comprehend.

I have a few questions for you christians out there.

If god is a good god and all knowing (he knows everything that is goin to happen) then why does he create hell, the devil and most importantly me? Why would god create me, when he knows that I am going to become an atheist. Does he create me just for fun so he can watch me be tortured in hell for eternity? This does not sound like a good god. Also god created evil,


How can you christians out there believe that he is a good god when he has ordered so many people to their deaths for much menial sins? (violating the laws of hospitality is an example)

Ok think of it this way, if you had a child (as Im sure many of you do) am that child were too become a lie to you (a sin punishable by burning in hell for eternity) would you send that child to burn in hell? What about if that same child were to hurt you? Then would you send that child to hell? And god is supposed to be infinitely more compassionate then humans, yet he will send one of his creations to burn in hell for eternity. Now there is the arguement that he will forgive anyone who asks for it. Well pose the same question. If you had a child and it lied to you, would you threaten to send it to hell unless it asked for forgiveness, yet it would not ask for forgiveness. Then would you be able to send it to burn in damnation for all eternity?

If god was truely a loving and compassionate being then he would have never created hell, evil, sickness, death, ect.

No logical, UNBIASED person could look at all of the facts and come to the conclusion that god, if he were to exist, is a good god.


2. Why are certain verses are taught in church, and others are not because they portray god as an evil god. People pick out verses from the bible they like and give no creedence to the others.

For example homosexuality is an abomination, I see good faithful christians yelling hateful remarks to homosexuals about how they are going to hell. Well the bible also says working in saturday, shaving, eating shrimp, and having tatoos are abominations. People want to use the bible as an excuse to spread hate, towards the homosexuals, the jews, and countless other peoples. If all the text in the bible is the word of god, and he never lies, then all the christians who ever ate shrimp, worked on saturday, shaved and have tatoos must repent or thier all loving god is going to condemn them to hell for all eternity

Now if god was all knowing why would he have created man handed down the bible if he knew that people would be killing in his name?

What is your reasons for having faith in this God? And I do not mean to be harsh, please do not say that I am attacking your religion because I am just stating what I have read/ and my opinion. I have talked to a bunch of christians and asked them questions, they always say I am belittling them, I do not like the fact that christians take every logical assumption about their religion as an attack, atleast the ones I know

I'm praising the Lord right now that you found your way here.....A lot of people never get to read a bible or hear a verse but they have that hunger for truth so they search.
You"ve asked a questions that a lot of people are struggling with .
If you are sincerely seeking the truth go straight to the source.
Jer.29:12-14
Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me,
and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD,"and bring you back from captivity.

God Bless!

 

[PastorJim]

Yes I mean all the holy texts

But God didn't give us all holy texts.

I am struggling to grasp why god would create people

See my previous answer to this question.

To be on this earth for less than 100 years and then tortured in hell for all eternity, when god knows that is it going to happen. why would he create these people? They are doomed to being in hell forever.

And they also had an entire lifetime to repent of their sins. They chose not to.

The problem I see though is these people were thought to be good christians.

Perhaps you should take a look at Matthew 7 sometime. The people in Matthew 7 were thought to be good Christians, too. They did all kinds of good deeds. But Christ still told them "Depart from Me, for I never knew you."

Why? Because even though they appeared to be "good Christians on the outside", they weren't born again. It's like somebody who cleans the outside of a cup, but leaves the inside of the cup stained and dirty.

The words in the bible has lead to so many conflicts and deaths I am finding it hard to understand why god would knowingly hand down the bible when he knew it would be the root of so many deaths/wars.

You just said that you understood that it was the fault of the people who misuse the Bible for their own purposes, not the Bible.

Did he believe that the good the bible caused outweighs the bad it caused? I have no idea

Please give an example of any "bad" the Bible has caused and please back that up by showing what passage supports that "bad".

They said they were christians, I guess I need to be more careful identifying christians

I agree. Jesus said that everyone who claims to be a Christian isn't a Christian. The Bible tells us that we can know whether or not they're Christians because people who have been born again will naturally exhibit certain traits.

I am wondering does the church really teached that homosexuality is an abomination? The preachers actually get up and say that to everyone, including young children?

I hope they do.

 

[janejenkins1]

Yes I mean all the holy texts
But God didn't give us all holy texts.

Okay, I am enjoying learning about this

I am struggling to grasp why god would create people
​

See my previous answer to this question.

okay

To be on this earth for less than 100 years and then tortured in hell for all eternity, when god knows that is it going to happen. why would he create these people? They are doomed to being in hell forever.
​

And they also had an entire lifetime to repent of their sins. They chose not to.

Are new souls created by god? They dont ever come back to earth do they?

The problem I see though is these people were thought to be good christians.
​

Perhaps you should take a look at Matthew 7 sometime. The people in Matthew 7 were thought to be good Christians, too. They did all kinds of good deeds. But Christ still told them "Depart from Me, for I never knew you."

Why? Because even though they appeared to be "good Christians on the outside", they weren't born again. It's like somebody who cleans the outside of a cup, but leaves the inside of the cup stained and dirty.

Okay I will try this reading

The words in the bible has lead to so many conflicts and deaths I am finding it hard to understand why god would knowingly hand down the bible when he knew it would be the root of so many deaths/wars.
​

You just said that you understood that it was the fault of the people who misuse the Bible for their own purposes, not the Bible.

I know that people misuse the bible, that is certainly true. alot of poeple use it as an excuse to spread hate, so I guess they are not christians. But I am asking why would god create the bible in the first place when he was fully aware people were goig to misuse it and cause killing and wars. He could have saved those people from death if he never created the bible.

I am starting to see contradiction and omnipotence go hand in hand. For example, if god was good and truely had good intentions he would have never created anything that would ultimately end up suffering, especially when he knows before the fact that his creation would end up suffering.

Hypothetically speaking it would be like if I decided to have a child, and I knew the child was going to contract aids and die at age 15 Would I have the baby? And if I did who would be at fault?

Me because I knew the child was going to suffer and I let him suffer, I gave birth enabling his existance and therefore enabling him to suffer

Or the childs fault for having unsafe sex and contracting aids?

If I somehow knew I was going to give birth to a child that was going to ultimately suffer and die I would not give birth. I would feel responsible for bringing more suffering into this world. Now imagine if I had 1,000,000,000 babies who I knew were going to die/live horrible lives/starve to death/be murdered. I could not bear the guilt of something so "evil"

Did he believe that the good the bible caused outweighs the bad it caused? I have no idea
​

Please give an example of any "bad" the Bible has caused and please back that up by showing what passage supports that "bad".

When I say bad I mean wars, like the crusades, and world war two when Pius the XII did not speak out on behalf of the church for the millions of jews being murdered. Remember I am basing all this off of the assumption that god is omnipotent, he knows all this is going to happen before it really does. He created the person who led the crusaders to kill jews, as well as hilter, with full awareness of what they were going to do. Im not totally sure about the book where god tells moses to build an ark, but he kills everyone on the planet save moses and some animals?

They said they were christians, I guess I need to be more careful identifying christians
​

I agree. Jesus said that everyone who claims to be a Christian isn't a Christian. The Bible tells us that we can know whether or not they're Christians because people who have been born again will naturally exhibit certain traits.

I am wondering what are some of these traits I should be looking for in good christians?

I am wondering does the church really teached that homosexuality is an abomination? The preachers actually get up and say that to everyone, including young children?
​

I hope they do.

This I find very hard to grasp, I have done alot of reading about this, and from what I understand homosexuality is mentioned 6 times in the bible. And I guess it is all left up to interpretation, but from what I read I do not think god condemns homosexuality. I really, really , really do not under stand the christian churches deep "hatred" ,what ever you want to, call it for the homosexuals. Would you please post a quote from the bible that you think is condemning homosexuality. I am really interested to see how you are interpreting it.

thanks again for you answers

 

[PastorJim]

Are new souls created by god? They dont ever come back to earth do they?

People are given souls at conception. They are then born and sin throughout their lives. They have an entire lifetime to repent of that sin.

But I am asking why would god create the bible in the first place when he was fully aware people were goig to misuse it and cause killing and wars.

That somebody misuses something does not make it bad or negate the good that it does.

He could have saved those people from death if he never created the bible.

I disagree. They still would have died. Everybody dies. The only difference is that they would have lived a few more years, but now they would have gone to Hell because they didn't have the Bible to show them how they could be saved.

I am starting to see contradiction and omnipotence go hand in hand.

Yeah, that reminds me. Back when you so boldly stated that the Bible was full of contradictions, I asked you for just three examples. I'm still waiting for those.

For example, if god was good and truely had good intentions he would have never created anything that would ultimately end up suffering, especially when he knows before the fact that his creation would end up suffering.

Why?

Hypothetically speaking it would be like if I decided to have a child, and I knew the child was going to contract aids and die at age 15 Would I have the baby? And if I did who would be at fault?

Nobody would be at fault. If you have children, they're going to die. They might die of AIDS at fifteen or they might die in their sleep at 90.

If I somehow knew I was going to give birth to a child that was going to ultimately suffer and die I would not give birth.

Then I hope you never have children. Everybody suffers and then dies.

When I say bad I mean wars

Which war, specifically, did the Bible say to start?

like the crusades

I taught history for many years at both the high school and college levels and I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but pretty much everything people believe about the crusades is exactly the opposite of the way it actually happened.

The Crusades were a good thing and the world would be a very dark and dangerous place had they not taken place. Thank God for the Crusades.

He created the person who led the crusaders to kill jews

The Crusaders did not kill Jews. The Crusaders fought alongside the Jews to help defeat Islam, which was killing the Jews.

Im not totally sure about the book where god tells moses to build an ark, but he kills everyone on the planet save moses and some animals?

And He was right to do so. Once again, you ignore the fact that God pleaded with people to repent so that they would not die.

This I find very hard to grasp, I have done alot of reading about this, and from what I understand homosexuality is mentioned 6 times in the bible.

It doesn't matter if it says it six times or six million times. Even if it only said it once, it would still be true.

And I guess it is all left up to interpretation, but from what I read I do not think god condemns homosexuality.

Yeah, try that one in a court of law sometime: "Well, sure, your honor, I know you believe the sign said 'STOP' but that isn't how I interpreted it at all".

I really, really , really do not under stand the christian churches deep "hatred" ,what ever you want to, call it for the homosexuals.

We don't hate homosexuals at all. If we did, then we wouldn't present the Gospel to them so that they might be saved. If we hated them, then we would want them to go to Hell.

Would you please post a quote from the bible that you think is condemning homosexuality. I am really interested to see how you are interpreting it.

Leviticus 18:22 calls homosexuality an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 calls homosexuality a detestable act.

1 Cor 6:9-10 calls homosexuals "unrighteous" and points out that they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Romans 1:26-28 tells us that homosexuality is "unnatural" and "indecent". It tells us that God was so angered by their actions that He essentially gave them what they wanted and let them carry on in their sin, only to face His wrath at the end.

 

[janejenkins1]

Ok thanks for your answers again, pastorjim

Yeah, that reminds me. Back when you so boldly stated that the Bible was full of contradictions, I asked you for just three examples. I'm still waiting for those.

1. Good god is the biggest condradiction in the bible. Someone good, righteous would never condemn someone to hell for all eternity, regardless of the circumstances. I would not condemn my worst enemy to hell, and the bible says god to be infinitely more compassionate than humans are capable of.

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Does this seem compassionate? Look down for the time god said it was punishably by death to strike ones father, god is father to all humans? So God was tricking this man, he was going to kill him either way.

No good being can kill and remain righteous/holy.

2. God gave humans free will, they are choosing to go to hell by not repenting. Say I put a gun to someones head and say, "give me your wallet or I will shoot you." That might be free will in your eyes, but I see circumstantial will. No one is going to let the robber shoot them. Free means to give or receive something with out an expectation of return. So to truely have free will humans must not to feared into doing something.

3. And third is the worst of all. Christians say to follow the word of god, which is the bible. People pick out certain parts to follow and ignore others like they weren't in the bible.

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Have you ever witnessed one of these events? How about the last one, kill nonbelievers, god says not to kill, then he says to kill nonbelievers. Well, I am sure you have met a non believer before, did you kill him? If you take all the words of god equally seriously you will find yourself in very contradictory situations.

Should I kill this non believer /follower to another religion /fornicator /adulter /father striker /fortuneteller /homosexual like god says or should I not kill another person like god says? They are both god's will right? Either way you are going to follow gods will and upset him at the same time, which will result in damnation in hell for all eternity. Catch 22

Im look at this with unbiased eye's, I do not understand how people can read the bible and still believe the words in it. It is really quite interesting how people can have such different views

 

[PastorJim]

Someone good, righteous would never condemn someone to hell for all eternity, regardless of the circumstances.

I disagree. If God is good, then He must punish sin.

If a man raped and murdered a little girl, would you think the judge was a good judge if he said, "OK, there's no doubt that you raped and killed that little girl. You've even admitted it. But because I'm a nice judge, I'm going to let you go."

Of course you wouldn't think he's a good judge. You'd demand his head on a platter because you know that the rapist must be punished.

I would not condemn my worst enemy to hell, and the bible says god to be infinitely more compassionate than humans are capable of.
Does this seem compassionate?

Yes, the fact that God would die for sinners and plead with them to repent so that they might not have to go to Hell is very compassionate.

Look down for the time god said it was punishably by death to strike ones father, god is father to all humans? So God was tricking this man, he was going to kill him either way.

I have no idea what that means.

No good being can kill and remain righteous/holy.

Why not?

God gave humans free will, they are choosing to go to hell by not repenting.

I agree.

Say I put a gun to someones head and say, "give me your wallet or I will shoot you." That might be free will in your eyes, but I see circumstantial will.

I agree, but that is not the case with Christianity. That is simply not what Christianity teaches, no matter how badly you may want to paint it that way.

3. And third is the worst of all. Christians say to follow the word of god, which is the bible.

That's a bad thing? The Bible says that we're to have mercy, that we're to show compassion, that we're to help the poor. Are those really bad things?

Have you ever witnessed one of these events?

You're ignoring what I said. These things were laws specifically for the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant no longer exists and neither does the nation of Israel (the modern day state of Israel is not the same as the nation of Israel spoken of in the Bible).

Why should we follow laws that were not given to us?

Im look at this with unbiased eye's

I don't think you do.

I think the fact that you continue to ignore what I say and continue to want to apply OC laws to us in order to try to paint Christianity in a bad light shows that you're very biased.

I think I've tried very hard to answer your questions but it looks like you're ignoring everything I say, so this will be my last post to you.

 

[Radagast]

Hello guys, I am an atheist...

Why do you have a Christian icon?