Struggles with Calvinism

Wow, even Double Speak about their NAMES!

Tra Phull said:

Wow, even Double Speak about their NAMES!

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I'm assuming you are referring to my post?

I am referring to your post, and Calvinistic Double Speak.

Tra Phull said:

I am referring to your post, and Calvinistic Double Speak.

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It is double speak to the one who refuses to listen and assume they know anything that is said. But, I haven't read through this thread so I won't defend anyone.

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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Hi

Thank you for your post. A can of worms is right ; )

From my studies I will give ideas I have struggled with. Although, I have always believed in a Wesleyan description of God's Soveriegnty even before I knew anything about Wesley or Arminius or Calvin.

All Calvinists and Wesleyan/Arminians believe God is actively involved in each person’s faith and transformation. Unlike Wesleyan/Arminianism, Calvinists believe God, from eternity past, graciously selects some persons to receive the faith to be saved, and guarantees that person’s faith and salvation to the end.

God is said to be actively responsible for each of the Elect's faith and salvation and of all things that occur. Such a belief is rooted in how Calvinists define God's Sovereignty.

Calvin's teaching on God's Sovereignty (which is the foundation for the 5 points of Calvinism thought) ultimately means that an omniscient all powerful God created mankind, including Adam and Eve, with the mindset to sin and act the way they did, or do, to fulfill His purpose... For, according to Calvin's doctrine of God's Sovereignty, a Sovereign God created or formed everything, and every person, perfectly to fulfill his plans.

God makes no mistakes, and no person God forms can ever thwart His purpose for creating him or her. That is how Calvinism defines God's Sovereignty, but is NOT the way Scripture defines God's Sovereignty.

What John Calvin taught regarding God’s Sovereignty is contained in his following work:

“The Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin, Chapter 16”
See: Calvin on God’s Sovereignty | Christian History Institute
Book One of “The Institutes…,” Chapter 16 clearly reveal John Calvin’s understanding of God’s Will as 100% active.

Chapter 16
Part 1 provides the foundation for God’s sovereignty as active (God is the cause).
Part 2 denies the idea of chance and that anything in the world is random.
Part 3 counters some alternative interpretations of God’s sovereignty.
Part 6 explores God’s control of human actions.

The Calvinist definition of God's Sovereignty must be active over all the things He created for His own purpose and pleasure.

This Calvinistic understanding of God’s Sovereignty is the mindset for which all Biblical proof texts are to be interpreted, and of which the 5 points of Calvinism are founded.

To further illustrate this key point, consider the following key statements by John Calvin:

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 206

“Since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.”

John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

“Those therefore whom God passes by He reprobates, and that for no other cause than he is pleased to exclude them….”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.

“If we cannot assign any reason for [God] bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will. When God is said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will, men are reminded that they are not to seek for any cause beyond his will.”

Questions: I wonder why a Sovereign God - as Calvin describes God's Sovereignty - would have to suffer and die on the cross for our sins. . .

If God is sovereign as Calvin defines it, that God can do anything he wants, why did God have to humble himself and die on the cross in order to save anyone from sin that God himself is responsible for?

And why would a sovereign God who is genuinely just, loving and holy want to create most people to sin and be condemned forever?

Doesn’t Scripture clearly state that God detests sin and is grieved by it?

Doesn’t Scripture teach that God is not pleased when they reject His grace and are condemned?

I wonder then why the Calvin God wills to create most people to reject Him, live in sin and predestine them for eternal punishment.

Under Calvinism, God had to die for the sins of those He mysteriously elects to save to satisfy His own Justice against those He is responsible for creating to reject Him in the first place.

Is this not a warped view of God's Sovereignty, Love, Justice and Grace that contradicts God's Glory as clearly stated and explained by Scripture in context?

A Sovereign God's Foreknowledge and Free Choice in Wesleyan doctrine explained. . .

Regarding God's Plan of Salvation, part of the decision a Sovereign God made when He created the world, and giving mankind free choice, was that such sinful acts would be possible, as much as this displeased God. Such a decision that God made to create man, then, would grieve God's holy nature. This is all explained in Scripture, which is also why God originally killed most of mankind in the flood.

Even though God is grieved with sin, God continued with His plan with mankind anyway. Why? God's greater desire for a loving relationship with His creation over-ruled His abhorrence for evil, sin and death.

In God's plan of salvation, God foreknew those through time who would, by faith, walk with God in love, and so access His grace. Such a relationship with his creation is precious to God, because God loves us so much.

Can God be glorified out of a world of sinfulness?

Yes, as a redeemer and savior – who himself, the Sovereign God, voluntarily came down from heaven and humbled himself as a human servant.

Why? To take the penalty of sin that Adam and Eve, and all people, are responsible for – this had to be accomplished to satisfy the righteousness and holy nature of God.

God took the penalty for all this sin upon himself being crucified for us to satisfy His justice, so God could show His Love and Mercy for all those who genuinely humbly cry out to him for salvation from their slavery to sin and death. To those God foreknew, He predestined.

Would a Sovereign God need to lay aside His glory to suffer and die in our place - for our sins - if that was not required to fulfill God's righteousness in condemning sin that we ourselves are guilty for?

Could anyone else have been able to mediate on mankind's behalf? No. No one else was worthy, so God had to do this himself...

Isaiah 59:16-17 (NIV)
16 He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head...

Would a Sovereign God need to humble himself as a man and be tortured and killed in our place if a Sovereign God could have saved us any other way?

Thankfully, God is not glorified by creating and decreeing and causing mankind and all their sinful acts, so he can take pleasure and glory in eternally tormenting them in the lake of fire. That is not what Scriptures teaches about God.

And God does not show favoritism and partiality by mysteriously electing to irresistibly give faith to some to believe and be saved, as if mankind were God's chess pieces in a game of arbitrary love and judgment for actions that God alone would be responsible for by His own "sovereignty."

God did not create man for the Lake of Fire. Even so, they enter the Lake of Fire because they, personally, rejected God’s grace.

The Scriptures teach that God cannot show favoritism and partiality, because there is no injustice or partiality in God. Since this is so, then how could God mysteriously select some for salvation, and reject the rest that He formed for destruction?

God is righteous in judging everyone for their own sins, and saving those who believe. For this to happen, God’s Sovereignty must allow for mankind to be responsible for rejecting or accepting God’s gracious gift of salvation. That is what we find illustrated and taught throughout the entire body of Holy Scripture, ex. ‘The Potter and the Clay.’

The Potter and the Clay

This draws us to the Potter and the Clay – God (the Potter) forms the clay info a vessel of honor if they repent, and dishonor if they reject God’s grace. See: 2 Timothy 2:19-21; Jeremiah 18:2-11; Ezekiel 33:11-12.

God does not form people with evil intentions; rather, Scripture reveals a God who forms people for a purpose of honor or dishonor, for condemnation or salvation, according to their own response to His grace and will. To those that reject His grace, the clay itself was marred in His hands. So God formed the clay for another purpose.

James 1:13-14 (WEB)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The Calvinist doctrine of Sovereignty is, therefore, incompatible with God’s Glory as revealed in Scripture – His character. For God is Love.

Thankfully the "God" of the Calvinistic worldview is not the Holy God of Scripture.

John 3:16-18

Blessings,
setst

Very gracious of you, Jonaitis, to not defend what you have not read, and gracious of you in an earlier post to say the OP might be "still a sister".
Of course, you listed conditions.
I have been in this thread since its inception, have read all of it - are you inferring that I am one of those who REFUSE TO LISTEN? Am I one of those who "assume they know anything that is said"?

Tra Phull said:

Very gracious of you, Jonaitis, and gracious of you in an earlier post to say the OP might be "still a sister".
Of course, you listed conditions.
I have been in this thread since its inception, have read all of it - are you inferring that I am one of those who REFUSE TO LISTEN? Am I one of those who "assume they know anything that is said"?

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I know that anyone who seriously studies and seeks out to learn about the doctrines of grace (also known as Calvinism) will begin to realize the precious value of these gems in the life of the Christian. It doesn't make one less a Christian to not believe them, but rather less the stressful, less the doubtful, less the shaken, less the fearful if they do see and understand and believe them. I say, to find "Calvinism," to put a biblical illustration to it, is like when a boat being tossed to and fro by the wind and waves is calmed by the woken Jesus, who was always in the boat with us. "Why are you afraid, you of little faith?"

Yes, I believe there are "conditions" to be a Christian. You must be a believer in the perfect person and finished work of Christ, relying on nothing else but his grace.

Thank you, setst.
"doomed from the womb to certain death"

A pretty grim God, and yes I am thankful that the Calvinistic God is not the God of the Bible.

Tra Phull said:

Thank you, setst.
"doomed from the womb to certain death"

A pretty grim God, and yes I am thankful that the Calvinistic God is not the God of the Bible.

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What you are calling the "God of the Bible" is the Holy Spirit...

Jesus discovered the so-called "Calvinistic God", etc... Or the God who was and had to be truly fully all-knowing from even before the very beginning, etc, and what that truly meant or had to mean, etc, entail, etc, and that by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, etc...

Anyway, either you believe Him (Jesus), and believe in God's absolute Sovereignty, or you don't, up to you...

Enter the true Trinity...

And only "grim" in your own very limited human judgments, or in a mere man's judgment judging God, etc...

God Bless!

So the only reason a Christian is not a Calvinist, Jonaitis, must be because they have never seriousy studied it - I see.
And if they do seriously study it, it is certain that they will become one of these "better Christians" - these Calvinists...

Either Neo' s way or the highway, I see.

And Jesus discovered the so-called Calvinistic God, you say, oh my goodness.

Tra Phull said:

So the only reason a Christian is not a Calvinist, Jonaitis, must be because they have never seriousy studied it - I see.
And if they do seriously study it, it is certain that they will become one of these "better Christians" - these Calvinists...

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You don't really have to seriously study anything, you just simply have to know what truly all-knowing means and what by and of necessity that does and must entail, etc, and it not that hard either, but it does require completely objective lenses a lot of the time, which is hard for some people, etc...

God Bless!

Tra Phull said:

So the only reason a Christian is not a Calvinist, Jonaitis, must be because they have never seriousy studied it - I see.
And if they do seriously study it, it is certain that they will become one of these "better Christians - these Calvinists...

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I cannot see how you could deny these truths upon an honest, prayerful investigation and assessment of them. I first visited them with hatred for them in my heart, what a vile doctrine that God would ever predestine anyone to hell! Oh, but when I begin to hear the words of my Savior speak to me the very same things straight from his word, my heart began to melt and see how much I am loved!

I know what sort of person I use to be, and how deep I was in love with sin, that I would never have came to Christ upon my own willingness alone. No human eloquence and effort could have drawn me, no woman could entice me just to "try it out." God used and worked through one humble preacher with one humble message and opened the heart of a militant agnostic fool and brought him to his knees sobbing in his own bedroom. I've heard many things from Christians, but it was that moment in time when I began to hear the gospel as it was for the very first time that God began to operate his amazing grace in me. I give all credit to him as the one who drew me to faith in Christ, to change my willfully rebellion to a willing servant like a flick of a switch. Sure, I "chose" Christ, but because he himself changed me and worked in me to have him.

If you want to continue relying on your own good works, or "keeping the faith," or whatever...to stay a Christian, go ahead. If you want to wake up each morning making sure you are still in the faith, go ahead.

My God isn't fickle. He doesn't save a person and then turn his back on them. He doesn't adopt a son and then disown him as if they were a stranger. He doesn't purchase and then refunds. He doesn't bring to life only to let it slowly die. He who began a good work will finish it. He is a perfect Savior, not a half-way one. I believe he is not only the author, but the finisher, of my salvation. It isn't me only from start to finish, but God in me from start to finish. God is God in all aspects. He receives all glory in all things.

royal priest said:

Eternal life belongs to the elect. They will not/ cannot fall away. Those whom God justifies He also glorifies. If someone apostatizes then they were never truly saved to begin with.

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Why can't they fall away, exactly. Show me biblical proof of that?

reformed05 said:

That is your conclusion. Reformed teaches that a truly saved person WON'T do those things and if they are doing them, as I said before, they are not really saved.

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How can you tell if they were never saved? What do you look for, I mean where is your biblical proof?

And you do realize we aren't so much interested in what "reformed teaches" as we are what the bible says on the matters. So please explain how you knew someone who fell away, was never saved to begin with. I mean beyond assuming it because Calvinism told you to assume it...where does the bible verify it?

reformed05 said:

, because He has placed us in Christ.

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We "place" ourselves in Christ when we choose to accept him. What you are claiming is we were forced/placed into Christ when we can't possibly be in Christs if we don't choose to willingly. As in, I "placed" this class of water on the table, and the water nor the glass had anything to do with getting there, or, in so many words, I forced it to be where it now is..

Where does the bible verify that we are "placed" in Christ and we do not place ourselves in him willingly by doing as he expects of us, as in taking the action that is, in turn, actual "faith"?

reformed05 said:

The gift of faith is not the same as someone gives you a present and you can take it or leave it and you now have control over it. The gift of faith that God gives is the ability to believe what the Bible says about Jesus. Who Jesus is. What He did on earth and in the cross

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You aren't describing "faith" there, but "ability" to have it, two separate things.

reformed05 said:

I know the Bible's use of the word faith has been highly distorted to mean something illusive as the name it and claim it definition. Nine times out of ten when the word faith is used in the Bible it is referring to SAVING faith. The faith that saves. It isn't a conjured up thing.

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Question is why is it really distorted? It's not the fault of Gods word, and honestly from what I just saw, it appears to be getting distorted right here. Again, faith is not an ability, an ability is ability and faith is faith.

reformed05 said:

The Word says that a man will stand (in His faith) because Jesus is able to make him stand.

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Jesus is able to "make" us do anything he likes but he simply doesn't work that way. Please show me the scripture to which you refer there, and lets see what it says?

side note 1), it's best to quote the scriptures you refer to, if for no other reason it can save the time of the other party asking for the quote and you having to repose.

2) I hate to assume here but after seeing these things play out so many times in the past, and also to save a little time, please answer all the questions posted in this or any post for that matter, so we can know you are able to back up what you claim. If you cannot/will not do that, the inaction will speak for itself..

Look forward to your reply.

Dave L said:

Every Christian and every Church can fall into one of three categories depending on how they view salvation. They are as follows.

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OK, we have your word on that so lets start with the following first category.. Where does the bible verify that is an exact as written and viable category to begin with? Also, biblicaly verify that there are only 3 of them? Or is all you claim, man made and can't be verified at all as proper?

Dave L said:

1. People are so bad, God alone can save them (Augustinianism/Calvinism). Augustinianism confirmed as Orthodox by the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.

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Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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He is both. God will use certain people to accomplish his will. He knows from the beginning of time who will love him, so he uses those people. But he also uses unbelievers to play a role. As far as predestination, you cant read the NT without seing “elect”, “predestined” and similar terms. The way that makes sense to me is that God predetermines certain people to do things to bring forth His plan but He doesnt predetermine if you come to faith or not. Take Paul for example, Jesus came to him in a vision, obviously Paul was chosen carefully, but, just because he saw Jesus doesnt mean that God forced him to believe and be saved. Does that make sense?

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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Calvinism is indeed very dark; and if true it would be very sad. But the truth is Calvinism vastly underestimates God's power and exalts man too highly- the very things it claims not to do. A sovereign king does not control the actions of everyone in his realm nor do the people in his realm necessarily do what he says. A sovereign king is one who is powerful enough to make the laws for his kingdom(which will be just if he is a just man) and to deal with his citizens in accordance with their deeds and attitude towards those laws (and by extension towards him). God is powerful enough to allow free will to take course and yet still be fully in control. Calvinism basically teaches that God's sovereignty means everything happened by his decree- and that falsely limits God's actual power and is also is the most man-exalting doctrine ever! It gives every sinner an excuse to blame their sin on God. Calvinists will usually deny this, but their doctrine logically followed leads to this and some do admit it. Salvation being a gift of God does not mean it is unconditional. A free gift can have terms to it (as God's justification does). And God moving powerfully in your life to make you a Christian doesn't you couldn't have refused nor does it guarantee that you won't turn away from Him in the future. If God worked to irresistibly overpower some to faith and salvation, and yet not in others, He would be a respecter of persons. And the Bible says over and over that God is no respecter of persons.

Ask the Calvinist who pushes it to you if you have free will to believe in Calvinism and why he/she is so frustrated that you won't receive it. Watch how they evaluate you and expect you to respond positively to them- the very thing they deny that man is able to do with God's Truth! They don't follow their own doctrine (unless maybe they don't promote it at all and expect you to receive it). They also love to say how man is nothing; and yet if you call one of their prized, revered teachers anything negative they take great offense. It is a doctrine filled with false assumptions, gaping holes, bad Bible scholarship, and subtle or blatant hypocrisy. Please study your Bible carefully and drink from the well of truth itself. You will know for sure before long that Calvinism is incompatible with Biblical Christianity.

Kenny'sID said:

OK, we have your word on that so lets start with the following first category.. Where does the bible verify that is an exact as written and viable category to begin with? Also, biblicaly verify that there are only 3 of them? Or is all you claim, man made and can't be verified at all as proper?

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Only these 3 views of salvation are possible. Again stated simply. 1) God alone saves people. 2)people save themselves with God's help. or 3) people save themselves without God's help. Only one is true. The other two present a false gospel and a false Christ.

Butch5 said:

I'm not one of those many. I know what Calvin taught. By his own admission he was a Stoic. The Stoics taught Fatalism. Calvin held to Fatalism he just attributed it to God rather than fate

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Any documentation?

Butch5 said:

Calvinism isn't God's word on the matter, it's Calvin's

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Notice I was asking a question about your suggestion he doesn't need God's word on the matter.

>Butch5 said: ↑
It's valid. The OP is a new Christian and needs a foundation, not a bunch of verses that they may not know thrown at them.