Struggles with Calvinism

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

I didn't s..y YOU brought her to tears, Reformed05 - where in the world did you get that?

SYNERGY was a technical term that I used.

Yeshuaslavejeff did nothing wrong in what he posted, neither did I.

You said that I SAID you brought Emsmom to tears. That is NOT TRUE, neither is it true that I am on a "high horse".

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

The "can of worms" was opened long before you posted, Emsmom 1

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

reformed05 said:
Yes. Hit post by accident before I had proofed.

Our conscience isn't the Voice of God. Our conscience is falable. What we are supposed to listen to is wisdom. What you said wasn't a wise thing to do, all things considered. But I see, you are not alone. Here come the self righteous free willers all telling someone they don't even know what she should and should not believe. If you notice, I merely told her where she could find accurate information on Reformed Theology so she could make up her own mind. She(Emsmom hope you r a she, forgive me if not) is SEARCHING. For heavens same let her search!

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Roger E. OLSON and Robert Shank are Arminian authors, and of course John Wesley and Jacob Arminius himself.

Along with Sproul, I would say John Piper, John Macarthur, and Arthur Pink are some top Calvinist authors.

As Hammster said, Emsmom 1, "don't worry about it"

Monna · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I get that God can do anything he wants,

Perhaps this is so. But it is also true that He doesn't do just anything He wants.

God is Love. Read 1 Corinthians 13 as if it is God's statement of what image He would like us to have of Himself. You might be surprised. Read verses 4 - 7 several times over. God does not force Himself on those He loves. He is not self-centred, He is not selfish, seeking to impose His will, or His love on us. Yet His generosity (itself an aspect of the kindness of Love) is extended to ALL - He sends the sunshine and the rain (symbols of His generosity) on the righteous and the unrighteous.

At the same time, Jesus could also say truthfully, "noone comes to me unless my Father draws him." God ALWAYS takes the initiative - He always has. But He "woos" us, he "draws" us. He knocks patiently and respectfully on the door of our heart. "If anyone opens, I will come in..." God is infinitely patient in his waiting for us to respond (Love is patient). Sometimes its a calamity in our life that makes us cry out "Help!" which He then uses as an invitation to show Himself to us; sometimes it's other things - like the unexpected love and kindness of a neighbour. God is still very creative in His methods to try to get us to notice what He has to offer.

He wants a relationship of mutual love. That is not something you can force on someone.

Now that you have experienced Him directly, cultivate your relationship by getting to know Him experientially, rather than getting a lot of "academic head knowledge" about Him. You will find out that He holds you more lovingly and you can hold Him.

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Oh, so all us Free Willers are "self righteous", are we, Reformed05 ?

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

patheos.com is where Olson and other authors post...

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

BryanJohnMaloney said:
Calvinism: God created most people specifically in order to make them suffer in agony forever.

once again. Someone who thinks they know what Calvinism teaches and they don't.
but answer this question. Since God is sovereign, and He could have sent Jesus to die so that EVERYONE would be saved, but not all p people are saved, which means He ALLOWED freely, some to go to hell, is that a "better"than the way you SAY Calvinists believe. If the reason some go to hell is because He gave man free will and it is up to us to decide is that better. A better more l oving God? He knew beforehand who they were. Why did He created them? Why did He give man free will knowing most would reject the sacrifice Jesus made? Why did He send Jesus to the Cross if He already knew the result would be more failure than success?

StillGods · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

I am with you. I was appalled when I went to a Calvinist church and heard God doesnt love people!!! i mean come on God is Love. so yes many aspects of Calvinism are in my opinion very wrong. it troubled me as well and after reading what the pastor at the calvinist church gave me and looking into it (Leighton Flowers has some interesting youtube clips) I have decided I'm not a Calvinist and have left the Calvinist church (because they cant help but weave Calvinist stuff into every sermon). feel free to not believe Calvinism you'll be a lot freer in Christ for it I believe...I have a lot more peace being a non-calvinist.
your neice has every possibility of coming to believe, God does love her very much, she can choose to accept the gift of Salvation Jesus bought for her on the Cross, she is not excluded from that if she wants to believe in Jesus she totally can. this is the good news that we can know the Father through His Son Jesus Christ.
Be at peace friend and toss Calvinism out the window. God loves people He just does
Calvinism has an arrogance about it that I dont like either. theres a lot wrong with it. they will say you dont know the Bible enough if you dont believe it, I reckon you dont know God enough if you do believe it.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Oh, so all us Free Willers are "self righteous", are we, Reformed05 ?

Seems like a lot of you are.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

StillGods said:
I am with you. I was appalled when I went to a Calvinist church and heard God doesnt love people!!! i mean come on God is Love. so yes many aspects of Calvinism are in my opinion very wrong. it troubled me as well and after reading what the pastor at the calvinist church gave me and looking into it (Leighton Flowers has some interesting youtube clips) I have decided I'm not a Calvinist and have left the Calvinist church (because they cant help but weave Calvinist stuff into every sermon). feel free to not believe Calvinism you'll be a lot freer in Christ for it I believe...I have a lot more peace being a non-calvinist.
your neice has every possibility of coming to believe, God does love her very much, she can choose to accept the gift of Salvation Jesus bought for her on the Cross, she is not excluded from that if she wants to believe in Jesus she totally can. this is the good news that we can know the Father through His Son Jesus Christ.
Be at peace friend and toss Calvinism out ghe window. God loves people He just does

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom 1
Both sovereignty of God and Free Will are true, I'm telling you, and after all, I am a self righteous free willer on my high horse! By Calvinist' s own allegations

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

Calvinism doesn't actually teach that God doesn't love people. You may find that being taught is some churches as I have found Reformed churches just as likely to be off message and messed up in doctrine and teaching as all the rest. I didn't learn Reformed Theology in a church. I learned it by studying the writings of trusted teachers in the subject and checking, double checking, triple checking against the WHOLE of Scripture.

aiki · Nov 10, 2019

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org - search "Molinism"

topher694 · Nov 10, 2019

Wow, seems to me reformed is unwittingly doing a great job demonstrating and confirming the OP concerns.

AlexDTX · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom1 said:
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

It is both. God calls and we answer. We can not answer with out God's, and his call is given to everyone.

In the parable of the sower and the seed, the seed was thrown on hard ground. The call was made to those with hard hearts, but because their hearts are so hard, the seed can not take root and is quickly taken away by the demon birds.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Emsmom 1
Both sovereignty of God and Free Will are true, I'm telling you, and after all, I am a self righteous free willer on my high horse! By Calvinist' s own allegations

Hope you meant by A Calvinists own allegations because certainly the Calvinist population in general didn't say you were self righteous, just me.
Let me put it this way, and it wasn't directed at just you, except for the high horse part. In your first post it struck me that you were up on a high horse. The self righteous part was aimed at post after post from the free will camp, telling this new Christian how dreadful Calvinism is and how sweet, and wonderful and RIGHT their beliefs are. Seemed self righteous to me not to mention presumptuous beyond belief.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

topher694 said:
Wow, seems to me reformed is unwittingly doing a great job demonstrating and confirming the OP concerns.

How exactly?

Tra Phull · Nov 10, 2019

Emsmom, the Apostle Paul had a "thorn in the flesh".
We don't know what it was, Paul wanted it to go away, was simply told "my grace is sufficient for the e"

It seems Calvinism is THE THORN IN THE FLESH of us self righteous free fillers.

reformed05 · Nov 10, 2019

topher694 said:
Wow, seems to me reformed is unwittingly doing a great job demonstrating and confirming the OP concerns.

Read my posts 14 & 17

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