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Don't forget.....I've already stated that I'm not at my computer at the moment. I'll have to do it in a while.
It says God chose Jacob and not Esau. It doesn't say he saved anyomeRomans 9 says God saved Jacob (Israel) and not Esau (the edomites).
Jacob = Israel who were his chosen people. Esau = Edom who were cursed.It says God chose Jacob and not Esau. It doesn't say he saved anyome
Why can't they fall away, exactly. Show me biblical proof of that?
How can you tell if they were never saved? What do you look for, I mean where is your biblical proof?
And you do realize we aren't so much interested in what "reformed teaches" as we are what the bible says on the matters. So please explain how you knew someone who fell away, was never saved to begin with. I mean beyond assuming it because Calvinism told you to assume it...where does the bible verify it?
We "place" ourselves in Christ when we choose to accept him. What you are claiming is we were forced/placed into Christ when we can't possibly be in Christs if we don't choose to willingly. As in, I "placed" this class of water on the table, and the water nor the glass had anything to do with getting there, or, in so many words, I forced it to be where it now is..
Where does the bible verify that we are "placed" in Christ and we do not place ourselves in him willingly by doing as he expects of us, as in taking the action that is, in turn, actual "faith"?
You aren't describing "faith" there, but "ability" to have it, two separate things.
Question is why is it really distorted? It's not the fault of Gods word, and honestly from what I just saw, it appears to be getting distorted right here. Again, faith is not an ability, an ability is ability and faith is faith.
Jesus is able to "make" us do anything he likes but he simply doesn't work that way. Please show me the scripture to which you refer there, and lets see what it says?
side note 1), it's best to quote the scriptures you refer to, if for no other reason it can save the time of the other party asking for the quote and you having to repose.
2) I hate to assume here but after seeing these things play out so many times in the past, and also to save a little time, please answer all the questions posted in this or any post for that matter, so we can know you are able to back up what you claim. If you cannot/will not do that, the inaction will speak for itself..
Look forward to your reply.[/quote
kennys
One reason I haven't been quoting the scriptures I refer to is because, though I have read the Bible cover to cover many times, and am very familiar with it, I have never been good at chapter and verse. I know where to find my references however and will but like I said ---- it will take time. Also I HATE typing but for you I will overcome my laziness.
Ok, nothing there about being saved.Jacob = Israel who were his chosen people. Esau = Edom who were cursed.
I can see plenty about being saved. That's why Paul said this.Ok, nothing there about being saved.
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
That's not why Paul said it. That's what I'm trying to tell you. In the beginning of the chapter Paul lists things tha pertain to Israel. One of those is the promises. He says the promises are the fathers. That's, Abrahm, Isaac, and Jacob. Then he says it's not as though the word of God is of no effectI can see plenty about being saved. That's why Paul said this.
Were Jews saved? Were Edomites saved?Irhats not why Paul said it. That what I'm trying to tell you. In the beginning of the chapter Paul lists things tha pertain to Isrsel.one of those is the promises. He says the promises are the fathers. That's, Abrahm, Isaac, and Jacob. Then he says it's not as though the word of God is of no effect
Then he says for the promise is. Then he refers to the calling of Issac. God had said that Abraham's see would be called in Isaac. Not ishmael.then he goes on to Jacob and Esau. How God chose Kacob and not Esau. It's still about through what the seed would come.
It's not about them being saved. He's explaining to the Jews why God's promises haven't failed. That's why he brings up the promise.Were Jews saved? Were Edomites saved?
It's about election to salvation.It's not about them being saved. He's explaining to the Jews why God's promises haven't failed. That's why he brings up the promise.
There's nothing there about being elected to salvation. It's about being elected as the people of Abraham that God had promised. In Genesis God made a fourfold promise to Abraham. He promised him that He would make him the father of a great nation, the father of many nations, that all peoples would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all the land that he could see. This is the promised land.It's about election to salvation.
There's nothing there about being elected to salvation. It's about being elected as the people of Abraham that God had promised. In Genesis God made a fourfold promise to Abraham. He promised him that He would make him the father of a great nation, the father of many nations, that all peoples would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all the land that he could see. This is the promised land.
The No True Scottsman fallacyETERNAL INSECURITY - the logical conclusion of Calvinism with its loophole of "never were saved to begin with"
Right! He chose the people of Jacob as His people and not those of Esau. It would be the people of Jacob and not Esau who would be the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham“For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” Romans 9:15–16 (KJV 1900)
= salvation or damnation.Right! He chose the people of Jacob as His people and not those of Esau. It would be the people Jacob and not Esau who would be the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham
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