Strong delusion

[n2thelight]

Why are only 144000 allowed to know the truth and the rest allowed to be decieved? Sounds unfair

Actually the number is higher,but to really understand,is to know that there was an age before the one we are currently in now..

Also,not to give him any credit,but satan will be VERY good at his deception(pretending to be Christ)that's why God shortened the days,for the Elect sake....

Off topic,but just want to say this,God knew you before you were born,and not just because He knows everthing,but rather because you exsisted before being born.......

May sound unfair to you,but strange as this sounds,it will be for their own good.....

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 146:

Fig Tree: "This generation" consists of the type of Jews whom Jesus contended with during this Tuesday, Matt.21:23-23:39.

It could be the opposite.

And Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

~

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

 

[Bible2]

dfw69 said in post 148:

Why are only 144000 allowed to know the truth and the rest allowed to be decieved?

Note that nothing requires that. For all obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

dfw69 said in post 148:

Why are only 144000 allowed to know the truth and the rest allowed to be decieved?

Regarding the 144,000, they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church, for all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

 

[Time Watcher]

"Regarding the 144,000, they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church


Which tribe are you from B2?"

Your "could be", "might be" mix of teaching along with your insistence of things like the 144000 of the children of Israel is "the church" is highly deceptive

 

[ebedmelech]

"Regarding the 144,000, they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church


Which tribe are you from B2?"

Your "could be", "might be" mix of teaching along with your insistence of things like the 144000 of the children of Israel is "the church" is highly deceptive

The 144,000 is the full compliment of all who have trusted Christ...that's what it is...and they are "True Israel"

The 12 tribes are used as a way to show this is the full compliment of all believers.

It's just not understood in the light of futurism.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The 144,000 is the full compliment of all who have trusted Christ...that's what it is...and they are "True Israel"

The 12 tribes are used as a way to show this is the full compliment of all believers.

It's just not understood in the light of futurism.

Hey Ebster, hows it going bro?

I have a question, because Im no good at this stuff (its got numbers and counting things going on) and so I know I must ask (in that)

But I was curious, do these connect at all? Just how its worded between

Right here (see prior verse) its speaking of Zion

Psalm 87:6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Psalm 87:6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

See what I am looking at between them? Zion, counting, (John hearing the number of these) 144,000, and the LORD writing up the people (having his Fathers name written in their foreheads). Given Sion is the church of the firstborn, and speaks of "this man" was born there (but perhaps speaking differently) as in being begotten again through Him.

I was just curious if I was on the right track with this thing or not. Because if it starts throwing counting and numbers at me (I already know where I will start heading) and that's south

These were just a few I was looking at though, seems so in some ways.

Just cross checking here, thanks for any help too bro

Anything in

 

[Another Lazarus]

antichrist shall summon fire to fall from the sky in front of people, even though he looked like a christian, he isn't.

recently pope said the atheist can go to heaven too. which is a betrayal of Christian Faith. yet all his believers believe in this delusion.

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 153:

Which tribe are you from B2?

Naphtali.

 

[Bible2]

Another Lazarus said in post 156:

antichrist shall summon fire to fall from the sky in front of people, even though he looked like a christian, he isn't.

His False Prophet will do that. And just as the Antichrist could make a worldwide television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36, so his False Prophet (who could be an apostate pope) could make a worldwide television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of Revelation 13:13, when he will miraculously call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone. He could do this as a Luciferian inversion of 1 Kings 18:19-40. For example, he could first gather together all the most prominent leaders of the Christian community worldwide to the Champ de Mars (Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon), which is the large open space in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And he could then tell them during a ceremony televised and webcasted live worldwide to pray to YHWH to send fire down and destroy the Tower.

And when the Christian leaders pray and YHWH doesn't do anything (by his own choice), the False Prophet could then pray to Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:4) to send fire down and destroy the Tower. And Lucifer could do so (allowed to do so by YHWH), so that 1 Kings 18:38-40 will be turned on its head, so that news reporters could write (in their words) "Then the fire of Lucifer fell, and consumed the Eiffel Tower. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces. And they said, Lucifer is God, Lucifer is God. And the True Prophet said to them: 'Take these men of YHWH! Let not one of them escape!' And they took them. And the True Prophet brought them down to the river Seine, and slew them there" (as a Luciferian inversion of 1 Kings 18:38-40).

But would YHWH really let something like this happen? Would he let Christians pray to him to send fire down from heaven but refuse to do so, while allowing Lucifer to send fire down at the beck of the False Prophet? Yes, YHWH could let this happen, as a test to Christians, to see if they love signs and wonders more than YHWH (cf. Deuteronomy 13:1-3). Believers must always remember that not all signs and wonders are from the true God, that Lucifer/Satan can also give people the power to perform them (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), in order to deceive people (Matthew 24:24-25, Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20).

The way not to be deceived is to continue to believe that everything the Bible teaches is from God (John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), no matter how amazing the miracles are of someone who teaches something that contradicts the Bible (Matthew 24:24; 1 Timothy 4:1). And the way to continue to believe that everything the Bible teaches is from God is not to continue in any unrepentant sin, for otherwise our conscience could become seared as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where we could no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, but after our own lusts heap to ourselves teachers who teach us fables which support us in our lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4), to where we could even become willing to depart from the faith itself, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1).

 

[ebedmelech]

Hey Ebster, hows it going bro?

I have a question, because Im no good at this stuff (its got numbers and counting things going on) and so I know I must ask (in that)

But I was curious, do these connect at all? Just how its worded between

Right here (see prior verse) its speaking of Zion

Psalm 87:6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Psalm 87:6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

See what I am looking at between them? Zion, counting, (John hearing the number of these) 144,000, and the LORD writing up the people (having his Fathers name written in their foreheads). Given Sion is the church of the firstborn, and speaks of "this man" was born there (but perhaps speaking differently) as in being begotten again through Him.

I was just curious if I was on the right track with this thing or not. Because if it starts throwing counting and numbers at me (I already know where I will start heading) and that's south

These were just a few I was looking at though, seems so in some ways.

Just cross checking here, thanks for any help too bro

Anything in

Hey Sis! I'm doing well.

You're on point with this. When it comes to the numbers you have to allow God's use of the numbers to stand out. Perfect thousands from God represent full compliment.

It's easy to see in Revelation 7:9, as John turns to see what the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel represent...after they are given:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

So when the Psalm says "this was was born there and that one was born there" this is the new birth of that person, as Christ said "You must be born again".

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hey Sis! I'm doing well.

You're on point with this. When it comes to the numbers you have to allow God's use of the numbers to stand out. Perfect thousands from God represent full compliment.

It's easy to see in Revelation 7:9, as John turns to see what the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel represent...after they are given:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

So when the Psalm says "this was was born there and that one was born there" this is the new birth of that person, as Christ said "You must be born again".

Thank you so much Eb!

I just wanted to cross check myself on this one, I very much appreciate your helping me here.

God bless you brother, thanks again

 

[bibletruth469]

antichrist shall summon fire to fall from the sky in front of people, even though he looked like a christian, he isn't. recently pope said the atheist can go to heaven too. which is a betrayal of Christian Faith. yet all his believers believe in this delusion.

I agree with you in some respects . I really think that the strong delusion mentioned in thes. Is the fact that people will believe the antichrist and his lying signs and wonders instead of the truth if the gospel only found in the message of Jesus Christ .

I personally believe that the antichrist will be a political figure while the false prophet could be a religious figure that points people on earth during the tribulation to worship the antichrist. I really think that during this age of grace that we are living in now, God will not disclose who the antichrist or false prophet will be, however the people living on earth during the tribulation will either realize that he is the antichrist and will probably be martyred for their faith or will be given the strong delusion because of their unbelief.

 

[ebedmelech]

antichrist shall summon fire to fall from the sky in front of people, even though he looked like a christian, he isn't.

recently pope said the atheist can go to heaven too. which is a betrayal of Christian Faith. yet all his believers believe in this delusion.

This fixation on the "antichrist" being an individual really has many saints looking at this wrongly.

When we look at the verses explaing what antichrist is it's easy to see what antichrist is:

1 John 2:18:
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

You must put yourself in this time! John is writing this to believers in his epic of time. He was telling them that antichrist was coming, and yet there were already many that appeared.

This is written for us to understand WHAT antichrist is throughout time. Just as John said antichrost was coming, and many where already on the scene.

In 1 John 2:22, John defines antichrist:
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

John does it again in 1 John 4:2, 3:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Again, in 2 John 1:7, John says it again:
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

So let the reader understand that to be looking for one individual as a minifestation of antichirst is just flat wrong to do!

We know there is Satan who is totally antichrist...and his emissaries are right there with him...don't look for any one individual...identify them all...because they are ALL antichrist!

 

[Another Lazarus]

His False Prophet will do that. And just as the Antichrist could make a worldwide television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36, so his False Prophet (who could be an apostate pope) could make a worldwide television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of Revelation 13:13, when he will miraculously call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone.

Please note the false prophet preceded the arrival of antichrist, like John the Baptist preceded Jesus but John couldnt do miracle like Jesus did.

the 2nd beast from the land referring to the false prophet from America
who will execute the instruction of the first beast (babylon rome) because the mighty military of usa shall b used by him.

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 152:

I really think that the strong delusion mentioned in thes. Is the fact that people will believe the antichrist and his lying signs and wonders instead of the truth if the gospel only found in the message of Jesus Christ .

That's right.

The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek there's a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie that has been around since the first century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in the future will deceive the world into worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and/or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and/or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

 

[shturt678]

I agree with you in some respects . I really think that the strong delusion mentioned in thes. Is the fact that people will believe the antichrist and his lying signs and wonders instead of the truth if the gospel only found in the message of Jesus Christ .

I personally believe that the antichrist will be a political figure while the false prophet could be a religious figure that points people on earth during the tribulation to worship the antichrist. I really think that during this age of grace that we are living in now, God will not disclose who the antichrist or false prophet will be, however the people living on earth during the tribulation will either realize that he is the antichrist and will probably be martyred for their faith or will be given the strong delusion because of their unbelief.

Too narrow of a view, however we're on the same page

Just ol' old Jack

 

[Time Watcher]

bibletruth469's view is not narrow, but precise .... there is a difference

And I will suggest this refinement regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

These of the "falling away" who refuse the truth are also noted in Daniel 8:23-25

..... and these are the followers of "Allah" today who say that God has no Son

Apostasy of the professing "church" is another matter and this condition is noted a number of times in the NT and in the book of Revelation [chapters 2 and 3]

 

[shturt678]

bibletruth469's view is not narrow, but precise .... there is a difference

And I will suggest this refinement regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

These of the "falling away" who refuse the truth are also noted in Daniel 8:23-25

Getting close, just need to move to IIThess.2:10b, since the Cross and especially in today's time, "...Because they did not receive the agape of the Truth that they be saved." This is the reason of the "falling away" and perishing, ie, most thinking they will awake in heaven.

..... and these are the followers of "Allah" today who say that God has no Son

Apostasy of the professing "church" is another matter and this condition is noted a number of times in the NT and in the book of Revelation [chapters 2 and 3]

Just ol' old Jack trying to not head for the 'fall.'

 

[Time Watcher]

Don't convert to Islam Jack .... even if you make it to the coming tribulation

The conditions may cause you to believe the lie

But if you refuse, you may loose your head even though you will gain your salvation

If you die before ..... make certain that you are ready .... this is possible

 

[shturt678]

Don't convert to Islam Jack .... even if you make it to the coming tribulation

The conditions may cause you to believe the lie

But if you refuse, you may loose your head even though you will gain your salvation

If you die before ..... make certain that you are ready .... this is possible

Religious delusions strike the very center of human life, ie, these delusions AFFECT every part of human life (including in the Christian Churches) and BEGET delusions everywhere which includes Islam.

Wow, had to think about this one, ie, thank you my friend

Just ol' old, had to think thrice on this one, Jack