Strategies for Dialoguing with Atheists

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Badfish
No, but I gotta run, I need a new bible, someone stole mine.

By the way, sorry about your Bible.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
My God doesn't hate either.

Would you please reference the verses I quoted that say otherwise. Thanks.

I know a little about Protestantism but I've never heard of this belief.

Don't you remember that whole string of threads Blackhawk started to explain the T.U.L.I.P. concept?

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L- Limited Atonement
I - Irresistable Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

Could you post a link where I could get some info?
Thank you.

But of course!

Reformed Theology

God bless.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Don't you remember that whole string of threads Blackhawk started to explain the T.U.L.I.P. concept?

Actually no. I only stop in this forum occasionally to ask questions or if a topic sparks my interest.
Thank you for the website, Reformationist.

 

[psycmajor]

God hates the sin, not the sinner. You are condemned to hell ONLY if you ask forgiveness before you die.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by psycmajor
God hates the sin, not the sinner. You are condemned to hell ONLY if you ask forgiveness before you die.

Okay. Please explain this:

Ps 5:5,6
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all WORKERS of iniquity.
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Does it say He hates the "works of iniquity?" No. It says "workers of iniquity." Does it say, "The Lord abhors the acts or lies of the bloodthirsty and deceitful man?" No. It says, "The Lor abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."

Please share your insight of these verses psycmajor.

God bless.

 

[Duster]

Originally posted by psycmajor
God hates the sin, not the sinner. You are condemned to hell ONLY if you ask forgiveness before you die.

Do you mean, if you DONT ask for forgiveness before you die, psycmajor? Because this would be correct.

 

[Duster]

Originally posted by Reformationist


Okay. Please explain this:

Ps 5:5,6
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all WORKERS of iniquity.
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Does it say He hates the "works of iniquity?" No. It says "workers of iniquity." Does it say, "The Lord abhors the acts or lies of the bloodthirsty and deceitful man?" No. It says, "The Lor abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."

Please share your insight of these verses psycmajor.

God bless.

You have it out of context, God doesn't destroy anybody anymore, so God abhors them, it doesn't say their fate is sealed. When Jesus came to die for our sins, things changed.

Un believers will be cast into the lake of fire, not destroyed, in the OT, yes God was disgusted and flooded the world, he promised to never do that again.

God sent Jesus and promises ALL that believe in him will have eternal life. God knowing our fate and predestining our fate are 2 different things, and I believe someone asked you to explain how this unfair God CHOOSES his victims?

Share your insight on this Reformationist.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Nucleon
You have it out of context

Well, please explain what it means in context then. Thanks.

God doesn't destroy anybody anymore

God is immutable. When He destroyed people before, it was a righteous act. His Law did not change. When you say "destroy" what do you mean? Even if you think that we choose not to "accept" God of our own "free-will" what do you think God will do with those that don't "accept" Him? Do you consider being condemned to an eternity of torment not being destroyed?

so God abhors them, it doesn't say their fate is sealed.

I never said that their fate was sealed. God can, and does, change the heart of all of us that are saved, from being His enemy to being His beloved. But, if God does not change their heart they will continue to be His enemy and will, therefore, perish.

When Jesus came to die for our sins, things changed.

How so? The path to salvation was always the same.

Un believers will be cast into the lake of fire, not destroyed

Even if this is the final disposition of the damned, don't you think that's being destroyed?

in the OT, yes God was disgusted and flooded the world, he promised to never do that again.

The state of humanity was no surprise to God. It's not like He said, "You guys all turned out bad even though I expected you to turn out righteous." And, He didn't promise not to do it again because He felt like He'd made a mistake. God never makes mistakes. His reason, whatever it is, for choosing to never do it again was just as righteous as His reason for doing it in the first place.

God sent Jesus and promises ALL that believe in him will have eternal life.

I agree completely. However, I'm saying that the only ones that believe in Him will be the ones He gives the necessary grace to do so. The fallen heart will never believe in God or accept His authority of it's own "free will" because it's will is not free, it is enslaved to a fallen, depraved, totally evil and sinful nature. The fallen man will always choose according to it's fallen nature. This negates the possibility of "choosing" God before He chooses you and changes your heart from fallen to regenerate.

God knowing our fate and predestining our fate are 2 different things

I agree and have never said otherwise. One (knowing our fate) is omniscience, the other (predestining our fate) is omnipotence or sovereignty. God, however, is both.

and I believe someone asked you to explain how this unfair God CHOOSES his victims?

I'm going to respond this under the assumption that you didn't mean it nearly as sarcastic as it came across. I believe I answered that question here. As far as being "unfair," what would be "fair" in your opinion? Here is the reality of mankind and you share with me what you think would be fair:

Adam, a representative for all mankind, sinned against God's righteous Law. As a result, he, and all mankind after him, inherited a fallen nature. This means they were spiritually dead and separated from God. They could not do anything that would reconcile them to God. God had to do something to change the relationship. His Law was righteous and He said that the "wages of sin are death." Someone righteous HAD TO DIE for the sins of mankind. Since no man was righteous He had to send Jesus. Only He could be an acceptable sacrifice, a propitiation for our sins because only He had never sinned.

Now at this point comes the crux of understanding God's righteousness. Jesus' death reconciled God's elect. It's important to understand what it means to be a propitiation. And, it's important to acknowledge what it means to "be reconciled."

To be reconciled means "to restore to friendship or harmony." Obviously not everyone who ever lived, or will live has been restored to a state of "friendship or harmony" with God. Further, a propitiation is "an atoning sacrifice." So, Jesus atoned for the sins of those that were restored to friendship or harmony with God. It is also important to note that the atonement was sufficient. No where in God's Word does it say that His death needed action on our part to make that transaction complete. The mere fact that we can now desire to live according to His righteous Word is proof that we were change by His sacrifice, not our desire.

Now, since no person that has been made righteous by Jesus' death will perish, the death afforded to those who have not been made righteous is deserved. They couldn't keep God's commandments without His grace. If they could, they wouldn't go to hell. They would deserve to go to heaven. No one, except Jesus, ever kept His commandments so what is fair is that everyone deserves to go to hell. It easy to see in this form:

We all sin. Therefore we have broken His Law. The deserved penalty for that transgression is death. He said if we break one commandment we are guilty of breaking all of them (James 2:10). Therefore, everyone deserved death. That would have been fair. It is even better understood in this way:

Justice - Getting what you deserve (this would equate to all of mankind dying because we sin)
Mercy - Not getting what you deserve (this would equate to not dying because we sin)
Grace - Getting what you don't deserve (this would equate to being granted eternal life in Heaven)

You see, if you are saved because YOU chose to submit to God then what do you deserve? Eternal life, right? Justice for you would be eternal life. However, even though the fallen man would never choose to willingly submit to God, He saved some. Is that fair? Is that Justice? No. The fact that He gives some "what they don't deserve" makes us saved by His grace, not our actions. Our actions are a result of His grace.

Share your insight on this Reformationist.

I hope I have.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Nucleon
so God abhors them

By the way, abhor is a very strong word. It's not some little thing saying God just wasn't fond of us.

Here's the dictionary definition of abhor:

Main Entry: ab·hor
Pronunciation: &b-'hor, ab-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ab·horred; ab·hor·ring
Etymology: Middle English abhorren, from Latin abhorrEre, from ab- + horrEre to shudder -- more at HORROR
Date: 15th century
: to regard with extreme repugnance : LOATHE
synonym see HATE
- ab·hor·rer /-'hor-&r/ noun

Sounds pretty specific to me.

God bless.