Still don't understand...

[Blackhawk]

So, on to my question:

What do you believe is the defining difference between those that do embrace the Gospel unto salvation and those that don't?

I feel that this is an important and complicated issue so I ask that any who wish to participate do so with an open mind and a desire to explain their position to those of opposing viewpoints. Therefore, I ask that people don't drop a one word bomb, like, "grace" or "free will," and then bail on the thread. Please explain your answer and let us all seek to glorify God with our behavior in this thread.

God bless,
Don

Well I think it is because God gave some a special grace through the holy Spirit to make decide that Jesus Christ is their Lord. God gives us the faith. That is what I see in scripture however I am not very dogmatic about it. I think what really is important is that we all must decide to follow Christ and make Him our Lord and worship and serve Him all the days of our lives. How we do it is interesting but i do not think we can fully understand the how. I think it is VERY important that we all believe that we must have grace from God in order to believe though. I am not a pelagian nor do I think that view is orthodox.

So I am a Calvinist but I really want everyone here to know and understand that all of us Christians must make Jesus our Lord and live by worshipping Him. That is what is important. I am not trying to cut down your thread Reformanist. I am just trying to say that we should discuss this although knowing that this is a mystery and that our walk with God is the more important than this.

But to answer your question again REformanist I believe that God must give us a special grace in order for us to believe. I think this is true not only from scripture but because I see so many who are just so blinded to the truth. I know of a guy at my work that is so bitter to Christ that he would never believe if it was up to him. I see many of the atheists in this forum and wonder how they can be so blind and so agaisnt God and his love. Then I remember that i am the same way. That I have been so blind also but God has come to me and made Himself known to me even when I wanted nothgin to do with Him. I feel that i can't get away from God even when I try my hardest to get away. God is always there. I can't stop believing in him because I know he is the Truth.

 

[Reformationist]

Well I think it is because God gave some a special grace through the holy Spirit to make decide that Jesus Christ is their Lord. God gives us the faith. That is what I see in scripture however I am not very dogmatic about it. I think what really is important is that we all must decide to follow Christ and make Him our Lord and worship and serve Him all the days of our lives. How we do it is interesting but i do not think we can fully understand the how. I think it is VERY important that we all believe that we must have grace from God in order to believe though. I am not a pelagian nor do I think that view is orthodox.

So I am a Calvinist but I really want everyone here to know and understand that all of us Christians must make Jesus our Lord and live by worshipping Him. That is what is important. I am not trying to cut down your thread Reformanist. I am just trying to say that we should discuss this although knowing that this is a mystery and that our walk with God is the more important than this.

But to answer your question again REformanist I believe that God must give us a special grace in order for us to believe. I think this is true not only from scripture but because I see so many who are just so blinded to the truth. I know of a guy at my work that is so bitter to Christ that he would never believe if it was up to him. I see many of the atheists in this forum and wonder how they can be so blind and so agaisnt God and his love. Then I remember that i am the same way. That I have been so blind also but God has come to me and made Himself known to me even when I wanted nothgin to do with Him. I feel that i can't get away from God even when I try my hardest to get away. God is always there. I can't stop believing in him because I know he is the Truth.

As always, nicely said.

God bless,
Don

 

[Yitzchak]

I would have to answer that the key difference is faith. I think we all have a measure of faith given to us and what we put our faith in and how we exercise it is what makes the difference.
I don't think faith is a matter of smartness or figuring it out and it is not necceasarially a "better than someone else" thing either. It is obvious that God has taken the first step and revealed himself. I think faith is tied into loyalty to the Lord.
I cannot answer why I responded to God in faith and some of my friends who heard the same gospel didn't. But it was for me a "no-brainer" in the sense that it was the only option that integrity would allow. I knew God was true in my heart and to not respond would have been to live a lie.

 

[Reformationist]

I cannot answer why I responded to God in faith and some of my friends who heard the same gospel didn't. But it was for me a "no-brainer" in the sense that it was the only option that integrity would allow. I knew God was true in my heart and to not respond would have been to live a lie.

But you do answer. You say that it make complete sense to you (no brainer) because of your integrity.

God bless,
Don

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It is the issue of man's volitional ability to "make a decision for Christ." I have had more discussions on this issue than I can remember and it is still a mystery to me. For two hundred years the predominant Protestant view regarding man's volitional inclination in his unregenerate state dealt primarily with his inability to acknowledge Christ's Lordship in his unregenerate state yet many Protestants wholly disagree with this, making professions of man's moral freedom to not only ascertain the things of God, which Scripture claims cannot be acknowledged by the carnal mind, but to actually embrace them, thereby obligating God to extend His grace of salvation.

Don

Hi Don,
I think people differ with you because most think that you take concept to an extreme. I have not read enough of your posts to know what you believe, so I cannot comment. I am not looking for a debate or even a discussion. I just want to share this in response to your question.
There are those out there who promote the idea that there are some who are predestined to believe... and they are the only ones who can or will be saved.
I do not see this. I know that there was predestined a group of people who would believe, but that this selection does not extend down to the individuals.
I believe that only people who receive revelation will be saved, but I also believe that the revelation is available to all who hear. God is not selecting an elect who He will talk to and the rest He is not going to talk to. He will speak to whoever has ears to hear. The power of the Word comes when they hear it. I agree (unlike some in my "group") that the word is irresistible. Mere exposure effects change. This idea may go beyond what you believe. There is no "decision" on the part of the individual. The entrance of the words effects light and the hearer is helpless. He is at the mercy of the word that he hears. Once they hear, then they become a part of and identified with the elect group. That does not mean that all these people who are elect will react and walk in the light of the word they have received. They may out and out reject it on a mental level. I think they are believers who are just resisting the light of the word that they have received and the Lordship of Jesus. I think some of our athiest friends are in this boat.
I know it is frustrating to hold to the position that you do. There are problems that go along with it. My main objection would be that: God predestines individuals for hell before they even were born. I know there is a group of people who are going to go there, but the people who make up that group were not selected beforehand, only that there would be a group.
Like I said... I did not respond for an argument or even a discussion. Only to answer your question.
Peace in Him
Didy

 

[pmarquette]

Election , predistination , Ephesians 1.5,11 .....
God knows His preachers , His leaders , His 5 fold ministers ....
.... but the word says in the mouth of 2-3 witnesses , no one comes to the father,
except drawn to him , there fore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers ...
if the end result is set , why the need of laborer's ...

.... it is written faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God , romans 10.14-17 ... there are several examples old and new covenant where the Law and the Words of Jesus convicted , and brought in the harvest ... why speak to the lost if they will not hear ?

..... it is written , admonition , caution to be ware of false teachers , wolves , false messiah's lest you be deceived ; that in the latter days many will be deceived , even the elect .... why mention is salvation assured ?

it is written , that God desires no one to be lost , that it hurts him when people choose death v's life [ Joshua choose this day ; Elisha on top of mountain choose this day , Moses choose what you will believe the evil report of the 10 or the words of Joshua and Caleb ]

..... seems some verses that indicate " free will , choice , redemption , fall , back slide "

 

[Reformationist]

Hi Don

Hello.

I think people differ with you because most think that you take concept to an extreme.

Strange... aside from that being an odd reason to disagree with someone I actually think most people take it too lightly.

I am not looking for a debate or even a discussion. I just want to share this in response to your question.

You don't want to debate or discuss your post? Why post it then? Do you just want people to know your opinion?

There are those out there who promote the idea that there are some who are predestined to believe... and they are the only ones who can or will be saved.
I do not see this. I know that there was predestined a group of people who would believe, but that this selection does not extend down to the individuals.

What about the group was predestined, the number of people? I'm not sure I understand the concept of a general predestination. Could you clarify?

I believe that only people who receive revelation will be saved, but I also believe that the revelation is available to all who hear.

So who controls who hears? Is that just luck? Is it random? Also, what do you mean by "receive revelation?" What constitutes someone receiving revelation?

God is not selecting an elect who He will talk to and the rest He is not going to talk to. He will speak to whoever has ears to hear.

Who controls who has ears to hear?

The power of the Word comes when they hear it.

So the power of the revelation of God is determined by the recipient of that revelation?

I agree (unlike some in my "group") that the word is irresistible. Mere exposure effects change. This idea may go beyond what you believe.

What do you mean "the word is irresistable?" What does the Word irresistably accomplish? Also, what change is wrought by exposure to the Word?

There is no "decision" on the part of the individual. The entrance of the words effects light and the hearer is helpless. He is at the mercy of the word that he hears. Once they hear, then they become a part of and identified with the elect group. That does not mean that all these people who are elect will react and walk in the light of the word they have received.

I'm a little lost by your reasoning here. You say the Word is irresistable, right? The hearer is helpless to stop it from "effecting light." Yet you also acknowledge that some may continue to reject that irresistable Word. Pray tell, what exactly is it that the Word irresistably accomplishes?

They may out and out reject it on a mental level. I think they are believers who are just resisting the light of the word that they have received and the Lordship of Jesus. I think some of our athiest friends are in this boat.

Okay. So then the Word is not "irresistable," right? Or do you think that the Word will ALWAYS accomplish it's intended goal?

I know it is frustrating to hold to the position that you do. There are problems that go along with it. My main objection would be that: God predestines individuals for hell before they even were born. I know there is a group of people who are going to go there, but the people who make up that group were not selected beforehand, only that there would be a group.

I would guess that you don't disagree with the doctrine of the omniscience of God, right? How do you reconcile the general predestination of a "group" to Heaven/Hell with the knowledge that God knew who would be in that group before they were ever created. Didn't God have the power to create in them the necessary ingredients that would incline them to embrace His Gospel? Additionally, if you don't believe that God predestines some to Hell then what do you make of this passage:

Romans 9:20-24
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Do you take that to mean that God arbitrarily created a catagory of vessels called "prepared for destruction" but didn't assign anyone to that catagory, even though He knew exactly who would fall into that catagory before they were ever created?

Like I said... I did not respond for an argument or even a discussion. Only to answer your question.
Peace in Him
Didy

I can certainly understand your desire to avoid a non edifying discussion but I don't see the point in dropping in just to let others know what you have to say if you're not willing to discuss it.

Obviously it's up to you whether you continue to contribute but you make some very confusing (IMO) claims that don't add anything to the discussion without further explanation. If it makes any difference to you I will preemptively tell you that you need not fear that I will attack your beliefs. I do, however, desire to understand why you think an omniscient God is general in His actions. I'm not sure I've ever heard/read someone say they believe in predestination but only in a general sense.

God bless,
Don

 

[BarbB]

Of course. However, we must not confuse the moment we made an "intellectual committment to be a Christian" with the moment the Lord rebirths us from above. We may know the exact moment of the former while being unaware of the exact time of the latter. What we can acknowledge, though, is that the latter must proceed the former.

God bless

Totally agreed!

 

[Boanerge]

I loved him and Jesus and was determined to walk in His way (i.e. an emotional committment), before I made the intellectual committment to "be a Christian".

This post is Hott! ok excuse my childish remarks..

Technical things:
But the question is nicely posted, and the One who questions remains conistant.

Ideal things:
Wonderful. I see alot of purpose and potential in this Post.

First i learned some technical things, but the Ideal things first led me to then learn from the technical things. Which then came first?

The Technical apeal of this post? or the Ideal appeal of this post?

I do not know exactly when the Ideal appeal occured, but the Technical appeal happened when i read the first two pages.

Then i like what New Lamb said.

Intelectual and Emotional decisions.

In my terms, the Technical and Ideal decisions.

and even deeper, the Temporal and Eternal decisions.

Ofcourse the third is too deep to understand right now....

 

[Boanerge]

Now, with what i read, Reformationist has been influenced by Calvinist views.



To me calvinist views is the predestination and all that. you know, it has been chosen before hand who will serve and who will not, no free will, etc.



excuse my informal style.



But like a wise man, Reformationist is questioning the roots of his beliefs.



Recognizing that something is not right..



The first step.



Ofcourse this has led me to not know exactly what denomination i am from, i am pentacostal, but i have learned something things about technical pentacostals that i do not agree with. My church is pentacostal but at the same time they also do not agree with the legalist views of technical pentacostal. Would this then make me a reformed Christian? does this mean that i had to break free from my prior beliefs?

But why? what lead me to question the basis of my beliefs?



This is one way God reveals Himself in our lives. To others, it is through the death of a loved one, or being married to a non-believer. These things seem to draw you closer to God. One would assume that we choose to search for God after learning that a loved one died or your original beliefs seemed false.



Someone told me, even if the doctrines seem false, remain faithful to your religion.



I couldnt accept this. What if i was in the wrong religion? My soul is at stake here.



IF you read my posts, i have a deep concern for Catholics based on this experience.

as a human, i have attacked the catholic religion. I have realised that this is not the way. Still i worry..

But where did this concern come from?

Why do i worry? isnt my life all about me? shouldnt i keep things to myself?

Why do i have this urge to tell others what i have seen concerning, lets say the catholic church. Where are these revelations coming from?



But when i tell them, for some reason they can not here me. It is as if i am on the outside, and they on the inside, and there is some kind of barrier blocking their ears from understanding what i am saying.



So then my hopes must lie within another means of communication.

 

[Boanerge]

it is like they are within a well and i am trying to tell them there is a way out.
What can i give to the person within the well, that can lift them out before its too late? before they mis understand God and start questioning, and find no answer, and instead of getting closer to God they become lost?

where can i find the Rope? the Means of communication?



And when i do? what is the rope? who gave it to me? was i born with it?

Did i find it myself? Did i choose to find it? did i decide to search for it? how did i know about it? was i chosen to be with it? Was i predestined to own this rope?



But then why is it that i myself was also rescued from the well. who saved me? who sent down the rope? i climbed the rope. Where did i find the faith to know that this rope will lead me to liberation? There is someone who owns this rope, and the rope is the helper of this someone. If this someone is my mother. who then rescued my mother from the well. if it was her mother, who rescued her?



It would then mean that the rescuer must be someone who can rescue themselves, and understand that we also need to be rescued.



Rescued from what? why do we need to be saved? Saved from what?

 

[Boanerge]

With this view. lets go back to the Calvinist view.



For the calvinist to be true, the Saints must then be born already saved, as opposed to the ones who reject the Gospel. Lets say the Gospel is the Ropes.



Then the Ones who are already saved, must then fall into the well, and then use the gospel, be redeemed and be saints. again?



This does not make sense. But then, how will God choose who is born already saved, and who will be born already condemned. Random choice?



But what does the bible say? "No one is righteous, not one"



How would this then compare with the view that some are saved while others are not.



do you see what i mean?



How about this.

a Parable:

Because of Adam, Satan led us to a well.



Eve then gave birth to all of us in a well.



But none of us could take ourselves out.



So God came down himself, in the flesh of Jesus, to show us that there is a way out. For we were born in this well, and we do not know that there is a way out.

Until jesus came.



Jesus then climbs out, and sends down his Rope. Could this be the Comforter? could this be the Holy Spirit?



Some insist that they do not need the rope, that they can climb out themselves. These reject the rope. These are Jews, for they know there is a way out, but reject the rope.



With this parable, it would then mean that we are all born in sin.



And because of Jesus, we can come out of sin.



Nicodemus asked "Do i have to enter my mothers womb?"



(according to Predestination, why would Nicodemus ask this?)



But Jesus said "You must be born of the Spirit."

 

[Boanerge]

Now back to my parable. Some children in the well, saw that there is a way out, they never seen the one who went out, but they saw a rope, and heard this is the way out. While some children in the Well, continue to walk around in circles.



Are the ones who heard better than the ones who didnt hear? Ofcourse not. But instead many hear, but who is willing to grab on to the rope of salvation and climb out? What does it take to grab on to this rope? who makes the decision? was it my decision to begin with? Ofcourse not. I have been presented with a truth. If i do not Get out of this well then we will all starve.

IT would then be foolish to WANT to stay within the well. I MUST choose to escape the Well.

But.

It turns out that many FALSE ropes have been rising up. Who are these people?

Are they not people who WANT us to remain within this well? Are these people that are aware that if we KNOW LESS of the truth, they have MORE POWER over us?

Wouldnt these false prophets ALSO need to escape? then they will be humbled down to our level. This is what they DO NOT want. They want to be ABOVE us. And in order for this to happen then they need to MAKE SURE that many do not know WHERE TO FIND THE ROPE OF SALVATION.

Whos plan is this? is this not Satans plan? Is this not what satan wants to do?

Are not then false prophets people who have embraced this plan?

But then this would mean that they have been chosen from the beginning to be false people. Right?

Wrong. Notice how Eve, was DECIEVED. She was not someone who embraced darkness, she was slowly convinced that the Serpant is telling the truth. To the point that she finally believed him. and in turn, made us all fall into darkness.

So we are either LEAD to truth, or LEAD to False teachings.

Either way we have a Free will to choose to be lead.

however it all depends on how much truth we know.

Which is why Proverbs Psalms Job, all these books emphasizes the fact that we MUST have wisdom, lest we be decieved.

Faith is wisdom. For one must know in order to believe. I have to know that the rope will liberate me from this darkness, and i have to trust that rope, and everything that is of that Rope in order to grab on to it and climb it.

Faith comes by hearing and Hearing by the word of God.

So which one is it?

Is it that ME MYSELF who DECIDED to follow Jesus? or Did Jesus Draw Himself to me?

Actually First came God's calling, like He told Jeremiah.

But then it is our Choice to Ignore or To Follow that Voice.

IT is not that we Choose to follow God and THEN we hear Him.

IT is First WE HEAR Him, then we choose to follow.

 

[Boanerge]

So the "Make a choice for Christ" IS to choose to listen to that voice that tells you "Listen there is a purpose for you, will you underwstand that God is with you, and do what God tells you?"

What is it called when you are in one form of thought, and all of a sudden you change and acquire a new frame of thought.

Is this what you mean by "Regeneration"?

I call this Baptism. When you finally are aware of the calling God has in your life.

When you finally find that rope down in the well.

No one knows Exactly when they actually Heard the Calling, when they finally made the Emotional Decision to heed that call.

But we do know when we have INTELECTUALLY made the decision.

The Intelectual decision is when you finally do some works, according to your faith.

For what is the point of making an emotional decision without making the intelectual decision. What is Faith without Works, like James says.

But we have to understand that no one is born with faith, no one is born with a fine tune ear hearing everything that God says.

Some of us are born with Parents who already heard the Voice.

And some of us are not.

Our purpose is to Listen For this Voice, and follow His commandments.

Because the well is no safe place for our souls.

 

[WashedClean]

So you believe we surrender first, and THEN God gives us faith to believe?

Sure, you're making sense. However, if your husband truly believes that God is what He says He is then He's already saved. The things of the Spirit are discerned by the Spirit. An unregenerate person has not the moral faculty to acknowledge the Lordship of God. The Gospel itself says that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to carnal man. If your husband truly believes that the Word of God is the revelation of the Almighty then that is not a carnal admission. Only by the indwelling of God may we recognize the truth of our depravity.

God bless

Hello Again,

I knew you were going to question me on that surrender/faith statement

I guess I haven't really given it much thought. I know what you're saying. I'm not sure if faith/surrender happens simultaneously or maybe faith comes first. I just know that it's all God's doing. I think the key word is "irresistible". When the Holy Spirit makes Christ's offer irresistible, we realize it's the only obvious response.

My husband is definitely NOT saved. He knows he has sinned and transgressed God's laws. However, he hasn't trusted Christ as his Savior. He knows that's the next step, but his pride is in the way (which is true of everyone who doesn't surrender).

Hey, I just thought of something . Maybe it has to do with how hardened someone's heart is toward their sin or God. If we don't fully comprehend how much we have offended God, then how can we really repent?

Not sure I'm making myself clear. It's been a really long day .

 

[WashedClean]

Reformationist,

OK, so I responded to your post before reading all the others since last night. I see that you have a problem with the word "irresistible" based on your response to Didaskalos. And here I go posting it AGAIN! Sorry about that...

What I'm trying to say is that the Holy Spirit either penetrates your heart with the Truth or He doesn't. Many people resist the Holy Spirit. But the difference between someone who is regenerate and one who is not is the level of awareness of their sinfulness. One of the reasons my husband has not surrendered his will to Christ is he still likes his sin. I know that sounds crazy to someone who is born again, but he doesn't want to give them up (trust me, they aren't that bad ). Even though he would be gaining so much more. If you don't know that, then you would rather stick with what you know. It's a control issue!

I often tell people that before I was a Christian, I had the wrong eyeglass prescription. Then God handed me a correct pair and gave me better than 20/20 vision (kind of that line from Amazing Grace, "I once was blind but now I see".) For me it was instantaneous. I was dead in my transgressions one minute and the next I was born again, even though I didn't know it. But some people say they become Christians gradually. That they can't tell you the moment or day it happened.

Perhaps I'm starting to digress a little... I guess I'm just trying to get to the "heart" of your question.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You don't want to debate or discuss your post? Why post it then? Do you just want people to know your opinion?

Because you said you do not understand.

I can certainly understand your desire to avoid a non edifying discussion but I don't see the point in dropping in just to let others know what you have to say if you're not willing to discuss it.

Sorry. Like I said, you said you do not understand. Just trying to help.

Obviously it's up to you whether you continue to contribute but you make some very confusing (IMO) claims that don't add anything to the discussion without further explanation.

Sorry... you said you did not understand.

do, however, desire to understand why you think an omniscient God is general in His actions. I'm not sure I've ever heard/read someone say they believe in predestination but only in a general sense.

Like you said.... you do not understand. But if you are ever to understand, then you must seek. Not bait and attack.
All those who seek will find.
I did. I do understand!

 

[Reformationist]

Boanerge, I mean no offense by not responding to your posts. I just could not understand one point you were making and am afraid I would get even more lost if I tried.

I do appreciate your time though.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Because you said you do not understand.

Sorry. Like I said, you said you do not understand. Just trying to help.


Sorry... you said you did not understand.

Like you said.... you do not understand. But if you are ever to understand, then you must seek. Not bait and attack.
All those who seek will find.
I did. I do understand!

I see. Well, thanks for your time. For the record I was not baiting you. I just don't understand what you're trying to relay. But, hey, thanks for implying I'm trying the old "bait and attack" routine.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

WashedClean, let me just say that I think your posts make sense and they are wonderfully and thoughtfully given.

I do have one question though...

You said, "But the difference between someone who is regenerate and one who is not is the level of awareness of their sinfulness.

What controls a person's level of awareness of their sinfulness?

God bless