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TheBear

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Indeed it is an incredible piece of history, VOW. I am not convinced about the lack of ligatures, though. And, the wrist is more a part of the forearm, than being refered to as the hand. So, I may be wrong about this, but nothing yet has convinced me that the spikes were placed in the wrists. Medical science has proven that in a certain positioning of the body, the hands will support the displaced weight of the body.

Either way, Jesus directed Thomas's attention to His hands, not His wrists or His arms.


John

P.S. I ran out of that chocolate. Got anymore? :yum:
 
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Trento

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My avatar is an image of a Crucifix that i put together using balsawood left over from a model airplane project. I used the accounts of the visions of the passion of 4 mystics who lived in different periods in history. These are St. Bridget of Sweden, Venerable Maria d'Agreda, Anne Catherine Emmerich and Teresa Neumann. Accounts of these visions are the most complete and have been published with Imprimatur in many languages. Reading these accounts i found only a couple miner discrepancies that can easily be explaned. What is facinating is that they all saw the cross in the non traditional form and the form they saw can be corroborated in the blood flow down the arms seen on the Shroud. The arms were tied and held tightly against the cross as seen by all the mystics. The research on the Shroud was done by Dr. Pierre Barbet and an engineer by the name of Cordonnier.They determined that the blood would have drippped off at the point where they parted from the cross if the arms were not tied.
 
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Originally posted by TheBear
Indeed it is an incredible piece of history, VOW. I am not convinced about the lack of ligatures, though. And, the wrist is more a part of the forearm, than being refered to as the hand. So, I may be wrong about this, but nothing yet has convinced me that the spikes were placed in the wrists. Medical science has proven that in a certain positioning of the body, the hands will support the displaced weight of the body.

Either way, Jesus directed Thomas's attention to His hands, not His wrists or His arms.


The original Hebrew for "hand" refers to the area of the wrists and the palm, so that should shed some light on your problem.
 
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VOW

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One of the things that astounded me about the Shroud was the two different drip patterns on the arms. This is because the person crucified must raise and lower himself in order to breathe.

The more I study the Shroud, the more I believe!


Peace be with you,
~VOW


( ::: uploading more chocolate to Bear ::: )
 
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TheBear

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VOW,

I believe without the shroud. ;) It is the Dead Sea Scrolls that make me sit up and pay attention. :)

Anyway, I will consider all possibilities. My mind is not closed on this, as there can be more than one interpretation on the evidence and recorded accounts.


John
 
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VOW

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To Bear:

Oh, I believe without the Shroud, too. It's just nice to have more verification, LOL. And I know what you mean about the Dead Sea Scrolls, they blow me away, too.

(Like the chocolate? It's Ghirardelli's!)


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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TheBear

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Originally posted by Avila
Now, now... VOW, you're not supposed to feed the animals... ;) It makes 'em dependent on you... :D

Not really, Avila. Neither VOW or I are really animals, and we both depend on God. Neither of us are 'above' the other...spiritually, mentally or otherwise. ;)
 
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TheBear

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s0uljah,

Could you please elaborate on your remark? Please give me the Hebrew word for 'hand', that also includes the wrist. I am also curious about why Hebrew words were used as the basis of the Greek written New Testament.

Originally posted by s0uljah
....so that should shed some light on your problem.

I don't get it. :scratch: You are the one who started this thread with the questions. I merely contributed my thoughts on the subject.


Thanks,
John
 
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VOW

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To Bear:

I've heard in other places that language pattern studies show the New Testament (at least some parts of it) were written in Hebrew, first. I'm not enough of a linguist to completely understand the reasoning, but the analysis has been made by people fluent in both languages.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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TheBear

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The earliest records of written Greek are inscribed on baked mud tablets found at the beginning of the present century in the ruins of the palace of Knossos on Crete and, later, at sites on the Greek mainland. Written in a syllabic script known as Linear B in which each symbol represents a consonant plus vowel combination, they can be dated to the period immediately before the demise of the Minoan civilization of Knossos which occurred in about 1450 B.C. Unfortunately their decipherment has not revealed any great works of early literature; most of the tablets are inventories of property or deal with agricultural production and produce. However they represent the earliest records of any European language.

Linear B was essentially a syllabic script with each symbol representing a consonant-vowel combination
The dating of the Knossos tablets does not of course tell us anything of when Greek was first spoken in the Balkan Peninsula and in the lands around the Aegean Sea. Archaeological evidence and the development of dialects would indicate this predated the Knossos tablets by at least five hundred years.

The earliest inscriptions in the forerunner of today’s Greek alphabet date from about 750 B.C., long after the Mycenaeans, mainland successors to the Minoans and heroes of the Trojan wars, had declined in influence and at about the time the poet Homer is said to have lived.

Homer, together with Hesiod the earliest of the famous writers of ancient Greece, is the subject of a vast scholarly literature. Some deny the existence of an individual poet and see the man as a personification of a long tradition of oral poetry while others have gone as far as to identify him with the "inventor" of the Greek alphabet, using his innovation to record the oral poetry of a long bygone age. Whatever the truth may be, it is generally held that parts of the Iliad use language that long predates the eighth century B.C. and that some of the descriptions of weapons and fighting techniques are consistent with the archaeological evidence from Mycenaean sites contemporary with the fall of Troy in about 1250 B.C. (according to archaeological evidence; 1184 B.C. according to the scholar Eratosthenes).

A very early Greek (around 650 BC) inscription with the text running from left to right then doubling back to run from right to left. This form of writing, resembling the path of the ox-drawn plough across a field, is known as boustrophedon. Unlike the example of linear B above, this is an early forerunner of the Greek script still in use today.
When considering ancient Greece it is important to be aware of the cultural and political background which was very different to that of a modern nation state. For much of this period Greece was fragmented into city states with their satellite colonies, each with its own political system and cultural values; these may, at various times, have traded with each other, fought each other or formed military alliances. In many cases they did all three. This separateness was reinforced by the Greek language which had evolved as a number of regional dialects through successive southern movements of Greek speaking peoples. The distribution of these dialects reflected patterns of migration and colonization and it did not follow that geographical closeness led to similarities in dialect. For example the Greek of Arcadia, the harsh mountainous interior of the Peloponnese, was closer to the Cypriot dialect than the Doric dialect used in the neighbouring southern Peloponnese. This is usually explained in terms of colonization of Cyprus by Mycenaean Greeks from the Peloponnese in the late bronze age while the Doric Greeks who moved into the Peloponnese after the Mycenaeans, never penetrated the inhospitable heartland of Arcadia. A further twist to dialect in ancient Greece is the practice of using a particular dialect for a particular literary form irrespective of the native speech of the author. Thus choral poetry is usually written in Doric even if written by a Boeotian such as Pindar or when used in Athenian (Attic) tragedy.

Bearing in mind that while Homer flourished in the 8th century B.C. (and some of his language was archaic even for that period) and Aristotle did not die until 322 B.C., not only do the texts popularly associated with ancient Greek writing span a considerable period of time (at least equal to the period between the present day and Shakespeare) but are composed in a number of distinct dialects. There is thus, at least in one sense, no such thing as standard ancient Greek common to all speakers - although maybe one such candidate did emerge. During the classical period Athens acquired such political and cultural dominance among the Greek city states that the Attic dialect of the 4th century B.C. began to be accepted as the universal standard, at least for Greek prose.

However politics were soon to bring about further and more radical change to the Greek language, perhaps the most dramatic in its tortuous history. Philip II of Macedon (382 - 336 B.C.) followed by his yet more ambitious son, Alexander the Great (356 - 323 B.C.), a man whose ambition stopped at nothing short of becoming master of "all the known world", swept away the traditional city states, uniting Greece and the near and middle east into a massive empire extending south to Egypt and east into India. Although the Macedonian court was thought of by other Greeks of the time as provincial and only half civilized, Philip seems to have been a man of culture and used his wealth to bring to his court only the best money could buy (among his imports was the philosopher Aristotle as tutor for the young Alexander!) and adopted the Attic dialect as the language of his empire. The far reaching effect of this was, for the first time, to replace the dialects with a standard national language. However the extent of the empire also meant many people whose native tongue was not Greek attempted to express themselves through the medium of the classical Attic dialect resulting in an erosion and simplification of the language and changes in pronunciation that remain until this day. This form of Greek is known as the common language or koine. It is the language in which the Christian Gospels were originally composed and which is still used, largely unchanged, in the Greek Orthodox liturgy.

It may be supposed that when the Romans arrived in Greece (Greece became a Roman protectorate in 146 B.C.) and the near east, Greek would have been superseded by Latin. However if anything the reverse was true, the study of Greek being mandatory for the educated Roman, and the use of Greek was widespread throughout the eastern part of the Empire. The Empire itself was to divide in 395 A.D. with the eastern half being ruled from Constantinople (modern day Istanbul), the capital founded by the Emperor Constantine the Great in 330 A.D. In the 6th Century A.D. Greek became the official language of the Eastern or Byzantine Empire. Long after the Western Empire and Rome itself fell prey to invaders, the Byzantine Empire persisted under increasing pressure from Islam in the east and crusaders and avaricious Frankish and Italian princes in the west until the final fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. By this time most of present day Greece had been occupied and colonized by Franks and Venetians, themselves later to fall to the expanding Ottoman Empire. Thus just as western European was beginning to emerge with the start of the renaissance, a dark age finally descended on the Greek-speaking world.

-Source: Translexis® Limited
 
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Originally posted by TheBear
s0uljah,

Could you please elaborate on your remark? Please give me the Hebrew word for 'hand', that also includes the wrist. I am also curious about why Hebrew words were used as the basis of the Greek written New Testament.



I don't get it. :scratch: You are the one who started this thread with the questions. I merely contributed my thoughts on the subject.


I'm not trying to debate you John. When I said "your problem" I was talking about your comment on the wrist vs palms.

My remark was about the translation of the prophecies in the OT. "They pierced my hands" could actually be "They pierced my wrists" I *think* I read that in The Science of God...but my memory is fuzzy about that.
 
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VOW

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To Bear:

I know the originals of Scriptures we have today are Greek (well, the oldest of the New Testament Scriptures). But I have read that I THINK Matthew has been found in small portions or fragments to have been written in Hebrew. Scholars have then studied the patterns of the sentences and determined that some of the New Testament Scriptures were most likely written in Hebrew before they were transcribed into Greek.

I'm sure Greek was chosen as the vehicle by which to spread the Gospel because it was considered to be the language of "knowledge" throughout the Roman Empire, and widely read.

I'll look for the source.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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TheBear

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Originally posted by s0uljah


I'm not trying to debate you John. When I said "your problem" I was talking about your comment on the wrist vs palms.

My remark was about the translation of the prophecies in the OT. "They pierced my hands" could actually be "They pierced my wrists" I *think* I read that in The Science of God...but my memory is fuzzy about that.

Sorry about the miscommunication, s0uljah.

My bad.... :sorry:
 
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