Stereotypes

[mkgal1]

Oh, I've not seen that commercial before (I just looked it up, though)---that's good for two stereotypes.....right? One for the woman crying (woman are manipulative in order to get their way) and the second that police officers can be easily manipulated by female emotions.

So true about the harm that does, LBF (besides it most likely being a wasted effort).

 

[ValleyGal]

Okay, my bad. All people who go to the gym are fit. That's a stereotype. I should not have said they all go to work out. They are all fit....stereotype.

I have not read anything past LBF's first comment I just referred to, but I think I'm done from my thread.

ETA, I never answered seeingeyes because she is on ignore. I rarely look at any of her posts.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Something else just came to my mind. I was dating the man who would become my second husband (he's deceased now) and he took me out to dinner on my birthday. This particular restaurant had a custom of making a big fuss on patrons' birthdays, singling them out, waitstaff all gathering around their table, drawing attention to them with the loud, cheerful singing, etc. I made it clear to my then fiancé that I did not want that. I have social anxiety. I don't like being called attention to in public. At some point he excused himself supposedly to use the men's room, but while he was away, sure enough, he had alerted waitstaff that it was my birthday, and here they all come with their cupcake and candles, and that loud singing and clapping, and gathering around my table.

"But I thought when a woman says, I don't want any fuss over my birthday, that means she really does," was his defense when it upset me.

And he had a point, because a lot of times, people do say "I don't want such-and-such," and then they get mad when they don't get such-and-such. You were supposed to read their minds and know what they really wanted. That does happen. And I hadn't called it social anxiety by name, or told him *why* I didn't want it. So I couldn't stay angry at him.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Okay, my bad. All people who go to the gym are fit. That's a stereotype. I should not have said they all go to work out. They are all fit....stereotype.

I have not read anything past LBF's first comment I just referred to, but I think I'm done from my thread.

ETA, I never answered seeingeyes because she is on ignore. I rarely look at any of her posts.

Logically, this reads like,

All flowers are red.
No, not all flowers are red.
OK, then, my mistake! All flowers are blue!

I really don't get what I said that was so offensive.

 

[mkgal1]

Okay, my bad. All people who go to the gym are fit. That's a stereotype. I should not have said they all go to work out. They are all fit....stereotype.

I have not read anything past LBF's first comment I just referred to, but I think I'm done from my thread.

ETA, I never answered seeingeyes because she is on ignore. I rarely look at any of her posts.

I'm still not sure if that's a stereotype (and it's not that I'm looking for things to bicker over). It's reasonable to expect that people going to a gym are fit....isn't it? That may be a generalization, because it's based on behavior of everyone in the group (since they're in the group for their behaviour).

Maybe if you reverse it and say "fit people go to the gym regularly" it would be a stereotype. Basing the group on their behavior (I think) makes a difference (and causes the categorization to be more of a generalization). Another example? Babies that breast feed have stronger immune systems (generalization). A stereotype would be (I'm thinking), "breast fed babies are insecure with people other than their mothers".

 

[mkgal1]

Those who are hung up on using words like "some" and "many" and other words like that are, imo, nitpicking and finding things to bicker about

I'll respond to this, since it actually seems to be what the main topic is, anyway.

It's not about "finding things to bicker about".....it's that when stereotypes are used (much like the ones that LBF gave examples of---like "women only cry to manipulate others") there is usually going to be some push-back when they are disagreed with. It is more accurate to state that "some women do that". If I'm not mistaken, our forum rules have added that generalizations not be used, anyway.

 

[ValleyGal]

Logically, this reads like,

All flowers are red.
No, not all flowers are red.
OK, then, my mistake! All flowers are blue!

I really don't get what I said that was so offensive.

You never said anything that was offensive. I just don't see this conversation going anywhere.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

You never said anything that was offensive. I just don't see this conversation going anywhere.

Well, that's a relief.

The topic is kind of fun, though.

 

[mkgal1]

I just don't see this conversation going anywhere.

I don't know.....I thought it was interesting that you brought up the idea of grouping people by behaviour. I hadn't thought of that, prior. So....I thought we were going somewhere?

 

[ValleyGal]

I'm not requesting it be closed. Everyone else is welcome to have fun with it. I'm just busier these days and lost interest. In fact, I was not really interested to start with, but I made the OP in response to another thread that I did not want to take off topic.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I'm glad you're keeping it open. Not only is the topic enjoyable for me, but I'm learning a lot and it's really making me think. That seems like a good thing to me. Even if you were not the originator of the thread, of course you would be more than welcome to continue participating if you want.

Maybe it can be productive if we consider:
What are the functional differences between generalizing and stereotyping?
What is the basis of truth in most stereotypes? Where did the public get that idea?

And, my husband for one has a hard time with this concept: What's the difference between being descriptive and putting a label on someone? He'll ask, for example, what's wrong with calling a homeless man a bum? That's what he is, isn't he? What's wrong with saying a person with a serious mental illness is crazy or psycho, if they're in the middle of a breakdown, behaving irrationally, and in need of emergency intervention? I've told him that possibly "symptomatic" is a better word in that situation, but he doesn't see the difference between "symptomatic" and "crazy." To him, it's all a matter of using fewer syllables instead of more, and being verbally efficient. He doesn't go for that "political correctness" stuff. Just call it what it is.

A few nights ago he shared with me that he is working on himself about not judging people, and boy did I want to kiss him for that, but he does have trouble making a distinction between judging and describing. I have tried to help him see that even "he's tall" or "he's short" is making an evaluation. Describing would be giving the exact height, without saying whether it's tall or short, because a man who is 6'1" is going to be "tall" to someone who is 5'3", but "short" to someone who is 6'9". I *think* he understood that.

 

[mkgal1]

Maybe it can be productive if we consider:
What are the functional differences between generalizing and stereotyping?

The way this article described the distinction seems to make it clear, to me:

When do generalizations move into stereotypes? Stereotypes are overgeneralizations; they often involve assuming a person has certain characteristics based on unfounded assumptions..

We stereotype people based on how they look in terms of sexual orientation, gender, race, and ethnicity. We look at people and may assume they have a certain sexual orientation or that their gender is either man or woman. We may assume they are white, African American, Native American, Asian American, or Latino.

We may be right or we may be wrong.

We also stereotype people based on what we assume about particular categories of identity and what other characteristics are associated with those categories. Some people assume that people who look “homosexual” are sexual predators; that women are nurturing and men are violent; that white people are arrogant; African Americans are loud; Native Americans are drunks; Asian Americans are smart; and that Latinos are lazy.

These are not generalizations, they are stereotypes. They are assumptions based on unfounded ideas about these groups, not identifying particular characteristics of a group of people. They signify a gap or lack in understanding. We typically stereotype those whom we do not understand or about whom we have no knowledge.~Everyday Sociology Blog: Understanding Generalizations and Stereotypes

What is the basis of truth in most stereotypes? Where did the public get that idea?

I'm just going to guess here (or offer an opinion).....but I do think a lot of stereotypes are based on common biases. Just like the woman driver stereotype....a lot of that may be backed up by what you (LBF) pointed out--that often there was only one car in a family--and the women didn't get as much practice at driving (also....how many couples have the practice of the man being the driver when the two are together?). It can be a skewed perception.....or seeing what one wants to see. The facts are skipped over and conclusions are drawn.

And, my husband for one has a hard time with this concept: What's the difference between being descriptive and putting a label on someone? He'll ask, for example, what's wrong with calling a homeless man a bum? That's what he is, isn't he? What's wrong with saying a person with a serious mental illness is crazy or psycho, if they're in the middle of a breakdown, behaving irrationally, and in need of emergency intervention? I've told him that possibly "symptomatic" is a better word in that situation, but he doesn't see the difference between "symptomatic" and "crazy." To him, it's all a matter of using fewer syllables instead of more, and being verbally efficient. He doesn't go for that "political correctness" stuff. Just call it what it is.

A few nights ago he shared with me that he is working on himself about not judging people, and boy did I want to kiss him for that, but he does have trouble making a distinction between judging and describing. I have tried to help him see that even "he's tall" or "he's short" is making an evaluation. Describing would be giving the exact height, without saying whether it's tall or short, because a man who is 6'1" is going to be "tall" to someone who is 5'3", but "short" to someone who is 6'9". I *think* he understood that.

"Homeless" is a fact (like short....tall...dark hair....blonde hair). Words like bum...crazy....psycho....are all derogatory terms.

 

[mkgal1]

Here is a (long) list of cognitive biases & social biases. Cognitive biases are tendencies to think in certain ways. Cognitive biases can lead to systematic deviations from a standard of rationality or good judgment.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To me.....all of that means that we can't always rely on our early impressions. We can be certain we know a person (or what a group is like)....but a lot of time, it's because of our biases that we see things incorrectly.

 

[ValleyGal]

I thought this might be interesting for you here.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/pla...ylist/13-things-men-dont-worry-234125075.html

 

[mkgal1]

That is interesting. It's not based on stereotypes, though (Things Men Don't Have to Worry About). That's just generalizations.

 

[ValleyGal]

Men don't have to worry about eating bananas in public. Sure, generalization, but what is the stereotype that arises out of it?

Or the stereotype that arises out of the idea that women avoid getting onto a subway car with only men on it....does that mean that those who do are either promiscuous or black-belts in self defense? Or what about the stereotype that some men don't get into a subway car with only men on it? does that mean they have probably been raped or else they are wimps?

What about women who leave a drink unattended? Are they stereotyping men by assuming that they are all going to slip something into their drinks (men can't be trusted)?

Take it further, MK. Don't stop at the point of generalizing. That's where most stereotyping just gets started.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Hmm, I do think it's stereotypes. It suggests all men are predators and all women are in constant danger. Some of those are more "true" than others. I'd never heard the one about not letting a cab driver take you directly home, or he'll know where you live. I had heard about some foods being suggestive for a woman to eat, but it was presented as a joke, not as a serious public safety issue for her.

Maybe it depends on what city or what neighborhood you live in, but I once lived in a neighborhood with such a dangerous reputation that even my social worker didn't make the regularly scheduled home visits he was supposed to make. Notice I said "he." But that man was afraid to go into the neighborhood I lived in. When my mother came over to visit, she was constantly looking out the window to make sure her car hadn't been stolen. Pizza places would not deliver there, day or night. You know what? The neighborhood wasn't *that* bad. It was low income and mostly black, that's all. It's not like there were muggings every day and constant gunfire. I could go out walking any time, and I was always safe. If I saw someone, I just smiled and waved and said hello like they were human beings (because they were) and the worst thing that ever happened was an elderly man once yelling something vulgar at me. I could tell that man was drunk, and if it had come to a fight, I could have taken him. I never felt like I was in any real danger. I think the neighborhood was more stereotyped than actually bad.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

"Homeless" is a fact (like short....tall...dark hair....blonde hair). Words like bum...crazy....psycho....are all derogatory terms.

On this, that's what my husband is not capable of understanding, without great difficulty. To him, words like "bum," "crazy," and "psycho" are also facts. Someone has neither home nor job, and is always asking for money, something he encounters a lot because he drives a bus and they frequently try to hustle a free ride, to him it's a simple fact that the person is a "bum." A person with mental health issues has a psychotic breakdown and begins yelling incoherently, then to him, "crazy" is merely descriptive. He doesn't see it as a judgment any more than calling our cats, "cats" instead of giving them some gussied up label like "feline citizen." He cannot define "derogatory." The only difference he hears is that the socially acceptable words are longer and fancier, while the words he gets into trouble for saying are short, simple, and to the point.

 

[mkgal1]

I disagree that those are stereotypes in that video. I think that's being proactive based on crime statistics.

If you broaden the demographics more, to include all people as a group (which probably isn't a stereotype--but just for the sake of discussion--let's say it is). If I made sure I didn't leave my baggage out of my sight at the airport (as they suggest).....does that mean I think *everyone* is a terrorist that's going to plant something in my luggage? Because that's not what *I* think......I just want to be careful and do what I can to not allow things to happen (within my power).

 

[mkgal1]

On this, that's what my husband is not capable of understanding, without great difficulty. To him, words like "bum," "crazy," and "psycho" are also facts. Someone has neither home nor job, and is always asking for money, something he encounters a lot because he drives a bus and they frequently try to hustle a free ride, to him it's a simple fact that the person is a "bum." A person with mental health issues has a psychotic breakdown and begins yelling incoherently, then to him, "crazy" is merely descriptive. He doesn't see it as a judgment any more than calling our cats, "cats" instead of giving them some gussied up label like "feline citizen." He cannot define "derogatory." The only difference he hears is that the socially acceptable words are longer and fancier, while the words he gets into trouble for saying are short, simple, and to the point.

He most likely has Asperger's (mild autism) and cannot pick up on subtleties of language. He'll say that himself. He's learning, but that change is going to come about very slowly.

If he's grown up hearing those terms often, that may be another reason.

I was horrified when I visited my dear sweet grandma in the hills of Tennessee in the late 70's. We were talking one day and she threw out the "n" word as if it was *nothing* in a sentence ("there are some _ living down the street, and they......."). The content of what she was saying wasn't derogatory...and I know she didn't mean *any* disrespect when she used that word.....it's just the term that was used back then and she was repeating it (not everyone has her sweet heart, though). I doubt she ever got a response like mine when she'd said it (just a look of horror). My aunt was the one to explain my response. My grandma never used that word after that, BTW (not when I was around).

Having you to point out what is/isn't derogatory will most likely be the best way for that to change with him.