Stereotypes

[ValleyGal]

One thing to note about stereotypes is that we all use them. I'm thinking of one of the terms that gets dropped a lot (by several people here) around here is "codependence." This term can conjure up a whole lot of stereotypes about what that means....and yet we use it frequently without any thought to the stereotype that it brings to mind, such as codependent people most often enable the other person, or their relationships are enmeshed, etc. For those who want to do away with stereotypes, they do still contribute to them by using terms like this. To do away with all stereotyping would mean to do away with all labels that we give people - and yet labels are often very helpful in understanding others.

My son has OCD. It is helpful for this label to be in his mental health and medical record so that physicians who treat him will know that there is something behind his incessant hand-washing or verbal repetition. I would by far rather have people understand him with the OCD label rather than have the world think he's a kook because he does odd behaviours.

Proving the truth is normally an uphill battle because it's so much easier to be dismissive or believe a lie.

I do not believe stereotypes are fixed for every single member in a group, as I demonstrated with the idea of single moms and welfare. The stereotypes themselves are not fixed, but a person's beliefs about the stereotype might be fixed.

 

[mkgal1]

One thing to note about stereotypes is that we all use them. I'm thinking of one of the terms that gets dropped a lot (by several people here) around here is "codependence." This term can conjure up a whole lot of stereotypes about what that means....and yet we use it frequently without any thought to the stereotype that it brings to mind, such as codependent people most often enable the other person, or their relationships are enmeshed, etc. For those who want to do away with stereotypes, they do still contribute to them by using terms like this. To do away with all stereotyping would mean to do away with all labels that we give people - and yet labels are often very helpful in understanding others.

My son has OCD. It is helpful for this label to be in his mental health and medical record so that physicians who treat him will know that there is something behind his incessant hand-washing or verbal repetition. I would by far rather have people understand him with the OCD label rather than have the world think he's a kook because he does odd behaviours.

Proving the truth is normally an uphill battle because it's so much easier to be dismissive or believe a lie.

I do not believe stereotypes are fixed for every single member in a group, as I demonstrated with the idea of single moms and welfare. The stereotypes themselves are not fixed, but a person's beliefs about the stereotype might be fixed.

You seem to be throwing together a lot of different things, though (and misunderstanding what a stereotype is).

Just because some people have the tendency to make assumptions and stereotype when labels are used---doesn't mean "everyone stereotypes". Like you said.....defining things (using the proper diagnosis) is often an important key to treating people. That ought not be thrown out (the labels)....it's the stereotyping that's the issue.

There are distinctions between generalizations and stereotypes.

You can believe or not believe that stereotypes are fixed....but that's the criteria for one of the distinctions. For instance......if a person believes the stereotype that being gay means having a lisp....when they hear someone with a lisp--that person will be believed to be gay. That's stereotyping. Saying that "most college graduates will get a job that matches their degree within six months" is a generalization.

Stereotypes, according to sociologist Joel Charon, can be distinguished by six main points:

1. stereotypes pass judgment

2. stereotypes leave little or no room for exceptions

3. stereotypes create categories that often dominate all other features of a person, not allowing for other characteristics to be seen and appreciated

4. stereotypes do not tend to change, even when proven wrong, which supports the idea that it is not backed by empirical evidence after all

5.stereotypes are also not formed by said empirical evidence to begin with, but instead through anecdote or otherwise

6. stereotypes do not help people understand their differences.
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Generalizations, on the other hand, take a mountain of data and produce a convenient pattern with which we can quickly and efficiently process little mounds of dirt resembling those mountains.~Generalizations v. Stereotypes | The Emory Wheel

These distinctions are made in order to alleviate confusion.

 

[mkgal1]

Getting back to this, " I would by far rather have people understand him with the OCD label rather than have the world think he's a kook because he does odd behaviours."

People understanding your son with the OCD label = good & based on knowledge

Thinking he's a kook because of his odd behaviours = (mis)characterization based on assumption

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What can be done instead of the stereotyping (because we aren't forced to stereotype) or making false characterizations--- taking the time to know the explanation for people's behavior or realizing one doesn't know enough to make any judgement at all.

 

[mkgal1]

More on the distinction between a generalization and a stereotype:

We make generalizations about objects in order to make sense of the world. When we see something, we want to know what it is and how to react to and interact with it.

We generalize about more than just objects; we generalize about people so that we know how to interact with them. If we see someone in a mail carrier’s clothing, we assume they work for the post office. If we see someone who looks over 80 years old, we assume they are not in the workforce anymore.

When do generalizations move into stereotypes? Stereotypes are overgeneralizations; they often involve assuming a person has certain characteristics based on unfounded assumptions..

We stereotype people based on how they look in terms of sexual orientation, gender, race, and ethnicity. We look at people and may assume they have a certain sexual orientation or that their gender is either man or woman. We may assume they are white, African American, Native American, Asian American, or Latino.

We may be right or we may be wrong.

We also stereotype people based on what we assume about particular categories of identity and what other characteristics are associated with those categories. Some people assume that people who look “homosexual” are sexual predators; that women are nurturing and men are violent; that white people are arrogant; African Americans are loud; Native Americans are drunks; Asian Americans are smart; and that Latinos are lazy.

These are not generalizations, they are stereotypes. They are assumptions based on unfounded ideas about these groups, not identifying particular characteristics of a group of people. They signify a gap or lack in understanding. We typically stereotype those whom we do not understand or about whom we have no knowledge.~Everyday Sociology Blog: Understanding Generalizations and Stereotypes

To understand different examples of stereotypes, you should first define what a stereotype is. Any time you grouping races or individuals together and make a judgment about them without knowing them, this is an example of a stereotype. Racial remarks, sexual remarks, and gender remarks are the biggest stereotypes.
http://examples.yourdictionary.com/stereotype-examples.html

 

[ValleyGal]

You mentioned that 6 points before, and I already commented that my sociology and psychology instructors would disagree, as do I.

I think you are not understanding that all these concepts are interrelated, and just because one person describes 6 main points, does not mean everyone uses that as a criterion for it being a stereotype. They do not apply to everyone in a group, for example.

Everyone does stereotype, to one degree or another. We all have biases, we all generalize, we all know that not everything applies to everyone. We also know that most stereotypes are true, at least to some significant degree, and there are some which are false. They are not all based on assumptions, as many of those which are true, have been backed up by stats. We also know there are true AND false stereotypes which can be harmful, so we need to be careful to not just take it at face value for each person, but should seek truth as to whether it applies to that person.

 

[mkgal1]

You mentioned that 6 points before, and I already commented that my sociology and psychology instructors would disagree, as do I.

I think you are not understanding that all these concepts are interrelated, and just because one person describes 6 main points, does not mean everyone uses that as a criterion for it being a stereotype. They do not apply to everyone in a group, for example.

I never posted that as a criteria.

There are numerous of sociology sources that cite similar things about stereotypes that I've already posted.

so we need to be careful to not just take it at face value for each person

Well "taking it at face value" is good way to describe stereotyping......or.....

Simply put: Stereotype
NOUN

1A widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing:
the stereotype of the woman as the carer
stereotype: definition of stereotype in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I'm thinking "widely held but fixed and oversimplified" are the key words there. The person who stereotypes, does so because "everybody knows" what should just be a matter of "plain common sense." The belief remains supposedly true across the board in all situations, with few to no exceptions. I recall how my grandfather, in the habit of eating his supper in front of the television every evening, would get so annoyed seeing commercials for such things as feminine products or hemorrhoid ointment. "They shouldn't show those ads during supper time!"

I was in high school at the time, and was naively bold enough to ask, "How are they supposed to know when you're eating supper?"

He lit into me for being sarcastic. "Everybody knows, supper time is around six o'clock. It's just common sense."

Which fails to take into consideration that, number one, not everybody eats supper at that time. Not everybody works nine-to-five hours. Number two, why would the governing body of television ads assume the viewing audience does as my grandfather did, and eats supper in front of the TV? "Everybody knows" you're supposed to eat supper at the table with your family, right?

My grandfather had the world divided into two groups: those who think and believe as he did, and "weirdos."

.

 

[mkgal1]

They are not all based on assumptions, as many of those which are true, have been backed up by stats..

A conclusion drawn based on observation and evidence is not a stereotype.

 

[ValleyGal]

I have stated numerous times that most stereotypes are true, at the very least to a large degree. There are stereotypes based on observation....and one form of research is observation....and once these stereotypes are formed, perhaps a hypothesis was formed and then studied. How else would they come to the conclusion that most stereotypes are true, at least to some degree?

1. stereotypes pass judgment
2. stereotypes leave little or no room for exceptions
3. stereotypes create categories that often dominate all other features of a person, not allowing for other characteristics to be seen and appreciated
4. stereotypes do not tend to change, even when proven wrong, which supports the idea that it is not backed by empirical evidence after all
5.stereotypes are also not formed by said empirical evidence to begin with, but instead through anecdote or otherwise
6. stereotypes do not help people understand their differences.

1. Not always. People go to a gym to work out and possibly socialize - that is a stereotype, but certainly not a judgement as in being judgemental. And if there is truth in a stereotype, and it has passed judgement, then it is a true judgement.
2. Everyone who has half a working brain knows that there are always exceptions to every rule.
3. It is not the stereotype that does that...it is the person doing it. A stereotype does not obliterate other qualities...it is the person who places emphasis on the stereotype than on other qualities.
4. There is some truth to the statement that IF a stereotype is in error, it takes the public a long time to change their opinion.
5. Stereotypes are formed in all kinds of ways, including sometimes by research or anecdote.
6. Stereotypes usually only address one aspect of a person, and can create a sense of belonging with others in the same group, where in individualistic societies, people are missing out on the human need of a sense of belonging. Stereotypes do not have to help people understand their differences in a culture where people's value is difference rather than sameness...which contradicts what some people on this board say they value - everyone (gender) is the same; people are more alike than different, etc.

Imo, some people don't seem to know what they want....sameness (which includes the need for stereotypes) or difference.

 

[mkgal1]

Imo, some people don't seem to know what they want....sameness (which includes the need for stereotypes) or difference.

I don't understand what you're trying to express there.

There are pages and pages of articles on stereotypes (and also dictionaries that define the word) that you can look up (besides the ones I posted). I've yet to see one that goes along with what you're posting. You're describing "generalizations". Stereotypes are a particular variety of generalizations.

 

[mkgal1]

Ah.....I think I just found what this is about. I missed this in the OP:

Those who are hung up on using words like "some" and "many" and other words like that are, imo, nitpicking and finding things to bicker about.

 

[ValleyGal]

As I stated before, these concepts are inter-related. That does not change the fact that most stereotypes are true to some degree, and that we need them for the purposes of social categorization and making sense of our social world. Just because there are those here who do not like it, does not mean they are going to go away, or that they are bad or useless.

 

[mkgal1]

As I stated before, these concepts are inter-related. That does not change the fact that most stereotypes are true to some degree, and that we need them for the purposes of social categorization and making sense of our social world. Just because there are those here who do not like it, does not mean they are going to go away, or that they are bad or useless.

The concepts are interrelated just because they all fall under the category of: our impressions of others.

It has nothing to do with "liking" it or not. I believe you're misunderstanding the term (and I do get high-sided on that---I admit).

If you have a stereotype (and I'll use the definition you used in your OP)--

Stereotype: Sociology . a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group.

that conception may or may not be true of each person in the group (you have a 50/50 chance....don't you?) Also.....you may be using what's called confirmation bias in order to cause the standard to appear true...for instance:

A man can stereotype women as bad drivers. How that can manifest is that when he comes into contact on the road with a male driver that makes errors in his driving (say.....cutting this guy off)....he'll call the guy a "jerk"....or "idiot" (because this guy goes against his standard that *women* are the bad drivers on the road. He's acting outside of what's expected of him). IOW....he *shouldn't* do that.

When a woman does the same thing---the guy will just shake his head and say, "women drivers". So....in this guys mind....he's justified what he believes (woman are the bad drivers)---even though, if looking at it objectively, he could have seen that both men and women alike make errors in their driving.

ETA: on confirmation biases: http://brainshortcuts.blogspot.com/

 

[mkgal1]

That does not change the fact that most stereotypes are true to some degree, and that we need them for the purposes of social categorization and making sense of our social world.

You've repeated this opinion all throughout this thread....but never answered Seeing Eyes question:

That's a big claim. What do you think would be missing if we no longer assumed that all single mothers are milking the system or that Asian kids don't all excel at math?

Because.....IMO...if we rely on stereotypes to "make sense of our world".....we run the risk of experiencing a skewed (or maybe even false) reality without even realizing.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

How is "people go to a gym to work out and possibly to socialize" a stereotype? It's a generalization, yes, but...

If Alice is a bad driver, and Bob concludes that Carol must be a bad driver too because Carol is a woman, that's stereotyping. Alice's bad driving has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman. There is no reason to assume Carol must be bad.

How is this stereotype rooted in fact? Well, I'll tell ya. Most women used to be like me. I only got licensed about a year ago. I simply never had an opportunity to learn before. There's more to it than that, but I'll leave it there for brevity. So along came Hubby, who provided me with the used car to learn in, and paid for lessons. Behold, I'm a driver now. But not only am I relatively inexperienced, I don't have as much opportunity to stay in practice. I don't leave the house as often as he does, and when I do it's only to go from point A to point B and back, while he is a professional driver and does it all day. When we're out together, most likely he's the one doing the driving. I cannot drive at all at night, so during the winter when days are very short around here, I'm liable to revert to taking the bus, since by the time I'm done with what I'm doing it will be too dark to drive home. Therefore, limited practice. What are people going to see? A middle-aged woman who is below average at driving. They have no way of knowing all that other stuff.

Most women used to be in the same predicament. There was only one car to a family, and the men usually drove it. Women learned to drive later in life and then didn't do it as often as the men did, so didn't sharpen their skills as much. Hence, statistically, women didn't drive as well as men did. But it wasn't because they were women.

Yes, it's true, I'm a woman and not the best driver in the world. But it would be stereotyping to assume that mkgal and valleygal are therefore bad drivers too, simply because they are women, or to dismiss any error they make as "those women drivers."

Maybe what makes it a stereotype instead of a generalization is that it is assumed to be true for the wrong reason.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, it's true, I'm a woman and not the best driver in the world. But it would be stereotyping to assume that mkgal and valleygal are therefore bad drivers too, simply because they are women, or to dismiss any error they make as "those women drivers."

Maybe what makes it a stereotype instead of a generalization is that it is assumed to be true for the wrong reason.

That's probably a good way to put it.

Those two main factors that come into play...the confirmation bias and Illusory correlation (both mentioned in the article that VG linked on Wiki) give the impression that the stereotype *is* true.

Generalizations are proven true by more than anecdotal experience.

I found another interesting article: http://www.asu.edu/courses/lia294a/total-readings/RamirezBerg--Categorizing.htm
In that article it mentions this:

There may be some correlation between the stereotype and lived experience, the "kernel of truth" aspect addressed by psychologist Joshua Fishman. For Fishman it was the "kernel of truth" that explained why large numbers of people agreed on many stereotypes; he posited that changes in stereotypes occurred in response to changes in political, social, and economic conditions.10 But "kernel" is an unfortunate choice of terms, since it means the core or best part of the grain. In the case of the stereotype, any real-life correspondence between a group member's behavior and a quality said to be characteristic of the entire group is only an isolated part of a much larger story, and usually far from the whole truth. Yes, there indeed were and are Mexican bandits, lazy African Americans, and Italian American gangsters. But banditry, laziness, and criminality are not culture specific, nor do those qualities represent the group's complete experience.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Something comes to my mind I've railed against often, because of experience. I've seen it too many times, in my own life and in the lives of others with similar situations. Say a person has a disability, and also has family members who care very much but have an inclination to be hovering and overprotective. They then create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Oh, poor David. He has a disability. He probably won't be able to handle X, so we'll just X for him. As the years go by, David tries to X for himself, but he stumbles just the same as Elaine and Frank and Ginger do. Elaine and Frank and Ginger are allowed to learn from their mistakes, but David is told, "Now, see? You can't X. You'd better let other people do the Xing." Later in life, when David still can't X, how much of that is actually because of his disability, and how much is due to the fact that nobody properly taught him to X? But then they turn it on David and use it against him: "David, notice how Elaine and Frank and Ginger can X, but you can't. This just shows you need other people to take care of you." Thus is born the stereotype that people with David's particular disability cannot X. Don't even bother trying to teach them--and the cycle continues.

Bob thinking Alice is a bad driver, when he's seen enough of her driving to know she is bad at it, is not stereotyping. It's the truth. Bob thinking Carol must be a bad driver, because Alice and Carol are both women, is stereotyping.

Similarly, Bill Cosby points out that if a white man is drunk and disorderly, it is only that one white man who is drunk and disorderly. But if a black man is drunk and disorderly, his whole race is drunk and disorderly with him. Would anyone care to agree or disagree with that?

 

[Avniel]

You've repeated this opinion all throughout this thread....but never answered Seeing Eyes question:



Because.....IMO...if we rely on stereotypes to "make sense of our world".....we run the risk of experiencing a skewed (or maybe even false) reality without even realizing.

We all stereotype to certain extent. When I see a police officer my first responses is that of apprehension. Have I been in situations that my stereotype of police officers has saved my life or protected me? Yes to a certain extent stereotypes can be helpful. If you give to 100 homeless people is it stereotyping buying them food instead of giving them money?

 

[mkgal1]

We all stereotype to certain extent. When I see a police officer my first responses is that of apprehension. Have I been in situations that my stereotype of police officers has saved my life or protected me? Yes to a certain extent stereotypes can be helpful. If you give to 100 homeless people is it stereotyping buying them food instead of giving them money?

I don't know if that's a stereotype, though.

Police officers can give us tickets....so even if we aren't doing anything wrong, we can have our heart drop into our stomach when we look in our rear view mirror and see a bar of lights lit up behind us....right?

I think that's probably a generalization--that police officers can possibly give us citations (fact....right?) or even haul us off to jail. The potential is definitely there....correct? That's not based on assumption or conjecture (or our own biases).....it's true.

A stereotype would be that police officers won't give you a ticket if you offer them donuts

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

A stereotype would be that police officers won't give you a ticket if you offer them donuts

Or cry, if you're a woman. Ever see that BelVita "Susan's Morning Win" commercial? One of the highlights of the ad, and the reason the character counts her day as successful, is that she manages to cry her way out of a ticket. She makes it obvious by opening her eyes to check and see if the officer is reacting.

I've had enough trouble getting my genuine emotions taken seriously without that "women only cry to manipulate" stereotype going around.