Stem Cell Research

[Seaside Mists]

You would be surprised I think Seaside Mists. The president hasn't made it a priority. He has supported the cutting of many federally funded programs which help students get ahead and have more opportunities and acces to a college education. A lot of people feel that education shouldn't be the problem of the Federal government and should rely on state funding. My governor has not done much better and has not supported educational programs to improve our public education in California. He has cut back similar programs as the president. We are the 47th in the country as far as funding per pupil in california, 47th in the country as far as performance, and have a counselor to student ratio of 1:1041.

Some people don't feel that education is something everyone needs but at least everyone should have access to it. Now with the No Child Left Behind Act, the provision allowing the military to gather information about students for recruitment purposes is changing as well. It has since been outsourced to a private company that does the marketing for Tower Records. These folks will gather student information such as Names, numbers, SSN, Addresses, grade point averages and if they wanted to, what CD's and DVD's they are buying for recruitment purposes. The sad thing is that these recruiters often make the GI bill look like a good way to help pay for college when in reality, they will never get the $50-70,000 promised unless they are in a highly skilled position such as being a doctor or a lawyer. So since other federally funded programs are being cut which allow access to higher education, they are being put in place by signing up for the military. Sounds moral? Not at all.

Not to hijack the thread too much, I think that it is the same with stem cell research. Americans are so quick to fight anything that scares them. More money is being spent on a pointless war than on education and research for it's citizens. That is a morality which I cannot support. More research and education is what we need. Especially since we are so far behind other "Westernized" countries based on standardized test scores in math and science.

Not much to say here other than your argument is very well thought out. Although I'm not sure that I agree with all of it, I think the points you made are interesting, and they're something I'll definately ponder.

Sorry for the wishy-washy answer, just trying to get back to the OP.

 

[Monica02]

Fair enough with your moral objection, however, the government paying for the research spreads the cost over all taxpayers vs drug companies who focus on those who use their drugs. I am not for government involvement in many things, but when it serves to benenfit the majority I am.

And if your schools pay that kind of money to teachers you should consider a career change and teach. And as a side note, I understand your concern with the spelling methods, but at the K level it can actually be quite beneficial. It encourages the child to think about sounds and letters before memorization.

The average teacher's salary in this area is $89,000/ year. The idea that allowing kids to spell words incorrectly is benificial is silly. The children whose spelling I corrected were willing and capable of learning the right way to spell their words. Can't five year olds think about sounds and letters and still memorize?

 

[Monica02]

I only had one teacher in kindergarten. She did a fine job of teaching and maintainig discipline in her classroom.

Not believing in the teachings of your Church makes you a heritic.

 

[comana]

The average teacher's salary in this area is $89,000/ year. The idea that allowing kids to spell words incorrectly is benificial is silly. The children whose spelling I corrected were willing and capable of learning the right way to spell their words. Can't five year olds think about sounds and letters and still memorize?

Sure they can do both at that age, but I don't think you should be overly concerned. Both my children learned that method in K, along with some memorization of words that can't be sounded. They later progressed to a traditional spelling lesson as should be expected in higher grades. They both are doing quite well. All I am saying is don't rush to judgement. But should there be a true issue with you district's curriculum please get involved with your school board, that's why they exist.

 

[Seaside Mists]

do not believe that my tax mony should be used to fund embryonic stem cell research (I do not believe it should be done at all). It should be illegal.

To be fair, it's not *your* money anymore... After you pay it to the government, it becomes the government's money. Because America is the free country it is, we are given the privledge of deciding where our money goes through our democratic system, by electing officials who most match our spending desires and encouraging them to spend as we'd like them to. Our government is the only time (for some reason) we feel it's our right to tell who's got what used to be our money how to spend it. It facinates me that most people would never dream of handing their money over to the clerk at Wal*Mart and then calling the corporate office to tell them what to do with the $78.98 they just spent at their store, but they feel OK about doing that with the government.

In the end, with all of the programs that are funded by tax money, you end up spending less than half a dollar on each one and it's more than likely that, at some point, all of the money you put into the tax system will go back into your pocket as you take advantage of various tax-funded programs, since at the current moment, (especially with SS the way it is) people take out more than they put in.

 

[Monica02]

Sure they can do both at that age, but I don't think you should be overly concerned. Both my children learned that method in K, along with some memorization of words that can't be sounded. They later progressed to a traditional spelling lesson as should be expected in higher grades. They both are doing quite well. All I am saying is don't rush to judgement. But should there be a true issue with you district's curriculum please get involved with your school board, that's why they exist.

I guess I do not understand why they would even bother with the "sound-out" method if they are just going to correct it later. It seems to be a way to employ more teachers.

 

[Seaside Mists]

I only had one teacher in kindergarten. She did a fine job of teaching and maintainig discipline in her classroom.

Then she was lucky to have either a small number of students or an unusually problem-free group of students along with an unusually active set of parents, interested in their children's education.

Not believing in the teachings of your Church makes you a heritic.

I believe in my faith as run by God, I have issues sometimes with the church as run by man, (remembering always that Jesus and God told us that man is prone to falling from grace through sinful practices and urges).

"Remember, He did not die for our sins.
He suffered for the truth and lived on.
Wrapped in his shroud, did he live on.
Let your faith be not blind lest you
Be lead as lambs from the reality of it.
See you not a heretic in me, but
Rather cast your eyes upon those
Others who were and are your deceivers.
For it is here that you’ve heard the speaking
That cannot be restrained.

Popular belief is not a criteria for Truth. Many times Truth stands alone… Apart from the crowd. Crowd mentality is not the air which sustains Truth.
So lock not your beliefs in a box forged by others. And be weary that Wisdom does not make His decent and finds no companionship, and dwells unrecognized the throng of searching and faithful, but equally blind souls."
"

 

[comana]

I guess I do not understand why they would even bother with the "sound-out" method if they are just going to correct it later. It seems to be a way to employ more teachers.

You might find the answer to your concerns by taking education classes or discussing it with your school's teachers and by getting involved. Believe me, employing more teachers is something many schools desperately want but can't afford.
I am not going to go into this any further because it is off topic for the OP.

 

[gaijin178]

To be fair, it's not *your* money anymore... After you pay it to the government, it becomes the government's money. Because America is the free country it is, we are given the privledge of deciding where our money goes through our democratic system, by electing officials who most match our spending desires and encouraging them to spend as we'd like them to. Our government is the only time (for some reason) we feel it's our right to tell who's got what used to be our money how to spend it. It facinates me that most people would never dream of handing their money over to the clerk at Wal*Mart and then calling the corporate office to tell them what to do with the $78.98 they just spent at their store, but they feel OK about doing that with the government.

In the end, with all of the programs that are funded by tax money, you end up spending less than half a dollar on each one and it's more than likely that, at some point, all of the money you put into the tax system will go back into your pocket as you take advantage of various tax-funded programs, since at the current moment, (especially with SS the way it is) people take out more than they put in.

The problem is that the system is flawed. I HAVE to give my money to the government from each paycheck that I get and then I usually HAVE to pay more at the end of the year. And yes, we do get vote our leaders in, however, the electoral college takes away from a lot of our desires in the presidential election. I would love to hear what school district you live in that pays that much at the public level. And since public officials have to have their salaries posted at least once a year, I would like to see documentation on that. Because if teachers made that much money, then we wouldn't have such a hard time finding them to teach. And maybe educators would be seen as a more socially accepted profession rather than lawyers and stockbrokers. I am in education in LA county and more than half of my salary goes to pay my rent. Show me the morality in that please.

 

[Seaside Mists]

I guess I do not understand why they would even bother with the "sound-out" method if they are just going to correct it later.

Because sounding out is an important skill children need to develop in order to learn spelling phonetically, a skill that (when combined in later years with simple grammar rules) will help them learn to spell all words, instead of memorizing frequently used words. The idea is to teach them how to construct a word through spelling techniques so that when they progress they can construct unfamiliar words and broaden their language and grammar abilities, instead of teaching them to memorize certain words and only use those words repeatedly in their reading, speaking, and writing.

Otherwise, we'd have a bunch of kids who spell like I do... :o

 

[comana]

Because sounding out is an important skill children need to develop in order to learn spelling phonetically, a skill that (when combined in later years with simple grammar rules) will help them learn to spell all words, instead of memorizing frequently used words. The idea is to teach them how to construct a word through spelling techniques so that when they progress they can construct unfamiliar words and broaden their language and grammar abilities, instead of teaching them to memorize certain words and only use those words repeatedly in their reading, speaking, and writing.

Otherwise, we'd have a bunch of kids who spell like I do... :o

Thank you for clearly stating what I was trying to.

 

[Monica02]

To be fair, it's not *your* money anymore... After you pay it to the government, it becomes the government's money. Because America is the free country it is, we are given the privledge of deciding where our money goes through our democratic system, by electing officials who most match our spending desires and encouraging them to spend as we'd like them to. Our government is the only time (for some reason) we feel it's our right to tell who's got what used to be our money how to spend it. It facinates me that most people would never dream of handing their money over to the clerk at Wal*Mart and then calling the corporate office to tell them what to do with the $78.98 they just spent at their store, but they feel OK about doing that with the government.

In the end, with all of the programs that are funded by tax money, you end up spending less than half a dollar on each one and it's more than likely that, at some point, all of the money you put into the tax system will go back into your pocket as you take advantage of various tax-funded programs, since at the current moment, (especially with SS the way it is) people take out more than they put in.

Spending money at Wal-Mart is a choice of the consumer, we cannot chose to not pay taxes. Illinois voted down a bill that would have used state tax monies for embryonic stem cell research. The Archdiocese of Chicago was credited as playing a large role in the bill's defeat. I organized a phone-tree campaign at my parish, and while my pro-abortion, anti-life state legislators voted for the wicked bill, I was happy that the Church was able to organize an effort to defeat it. One senator was swayed by the number of Catholic calls he received and changed his vote to no. Cardinal George recently travelled to Springfield to discuss life issues with the guv and other officials.
Our Governor was on the local news that night and sounded like a babbling idiot. His statements made no sense. I think the Cardinal scared him.

 

[Seaside Mists]

I would love to hear what school district you live in that pays that much at the public level.

The public schools around here are not funded well. Our school funding methods were found unConstitutional and struck down. Many school systems were forced to adopt old contracts for their schools and teachers that dated back decades. In my school system, the contract they enforced dated back to 1967, and incoming teachers who weren't grandfathered got paid the base pay of teachers in 1967... $21,900 a year. As a result our school system filed for bankruptcy and sued the state. Now, 10 years after the ruling, we have another funding method in place, which is currently under fire from high-income towns and schools, one of those schools is suing our school district for compensation of lost revenue and taxes because they are now a "pay out" school and ours is a "pay in" school.

In short, our school system is a mess.

And since public officials have to have their salaries posted at least once a year, I would like to see documentation on that.

Last I checked, it's about 3 times that of what our teachers make. Our mayor works 12 hours a week and gets paid $120,000 a year. Our airport manager gets paid $90,000 a year despite the fact that our airport has cost us more than 12 million in 2 years from running deficets.

And maybe educators would be seen as a more socially accepted profession rather than lawyers and stockbrokers. I am in education in LA county and more than half of my salary goes to pay my rent. Show me the morality in that please.

Out of curiousity, is that because the rent there is so high, or the income is so low? This is an honest question, because I saw an article about the housing bubble over there and I was shocked at what people were paying for houses. One person I remember paid $350k for a 1 bedroom, 4 room condo. :o

 

[Seaside Mists]

Spending money at Wal-Mart is a choice of the consumer, we cannot chose to not pay taxes.

You can choose to minimize your taxes. There are tax-deductable organizations you can donate to, which is why many large companies donate tons of money to charity, to offset the amount paid in general taxes.

Illinois voted down a bill that would have used state tax monies for embryonic stem cell research. The Archdiocese of Chicago was credited as playing a large role in the bill's defeat. I organized a phone-tree campaign at my parish, and while my pro-abortion, anti-life state legislators voted for the wicked bill, I was happy that the Church was able to organize an effort to defeat it. One senator was swayed by the number of Catholic calls he received and changed his vote to no. Cardinal George recently travelled to Springfield to discuss life issues with the guv and other officials.

An admirable thing for you, but is your effort to defeat the "wicked bill" well recieved by people who suffer from terminal illnesses, cancer, or other life destroying illnesses?

I think that the effort to push down these bills now is so strong because Chris Reeves has been reborn from this world. It is easier now for people to say "stem cell research is bad" when they don't have a walking miracle like Chris Reeves looking them in the eyes and showing us all who suffers when this research is pushed down.

Our Governor was on the local news that night and sounded like a babbling idiot. His statements made no sense. I think the Cardinal scared him.

I'm glad that you got amusement from the situation. I hope others found he same amusement you did, though I know there were quite a few who didn't share in your lighthearted take of the situation.

It is sad when people's medical future is played down to simple political headbutting and posturing.

 

[gaijin178]

The public schools around here are not funded well. Our school funding methods were found unConstitutional and struck down. Many school systems were forced to adopt old contracts for their schools and teachers that dated back decades. In my school system, the contract they enforced dated back to 1967, and incoming teachers who weren't grandfathered got paid the base pay of teachers in 1967... $21,900 a year. As a result our school system filed for bankruptcy and sued the state. Now, 10 years after the ruling, we have another funding method in place, which is currently under fire from high-income towns and schools, one of those schools is suing our school district for compensation of lost revenue and taxes because they are now a "pay out" school and ours is a "pay in" school.

In short, our school system is a mess.



Last I checked, it's about 3 times that of what our teachers make. Our mayer works 12 hours a week and gets paid $120,000 a year. Our airport manager gets paid $90,000 a year despite the fact that our airport has cost us more than 12 million in 2 years from running deficets.



Out of curiousity, is that because the rent there is so high, or the income is so low? This is an honest question, because I saw an article about the housing bubble over there and I was shocked at what people were paying for houses. One person I remember paid $350k for a 1 bedroom, 4 room condo. :o

I think that it's both. The condo across the street sold for 1.3 million....I saw a really ugly house that is for sale down the block and is going for 2 million. I don't live in a luxurious complex though just to clarify. I work in education remember...lol

 

[Seaside Mists]

I think that it's both. The condo across the street sold for 1.3 million....I saw a really ugly house that is for sale down the block and is going for 2 million. I don't live in a luxurious complex though just to clarify. I work in education remember...lol

Thanks. Like I said, my question is honest, not intended to be a dig or a put down. I'm just curious. I was shocked to hear a condo like that would go for so high. I just paid $129,700 for a Ranch, 2 bedrooms, 2 bath, on 2.7 acres and I'm in the process of buying undeveloped property, 97.8 acres, for $29,000 and I was shocked that people pay so much for a simple condo.

Not being from, or visiting your area, I don't know much about your housing market.

And with that, I think I'm going to call it a night. I still have to shower, and I like to read before bed. It's an early day tomorrow, so it's best to turn in. Goodnight all, peaceful dreams to everybody.

 

[Nymphalidae]

Not funding the public schools would privatize the system and force competition. Right now the public schools and the teacher's unions have a monopoly on tax monies for education. I really do not see how having six adults, some making about $85,000/ year reading stories and supervising five playtimes in a half day, 9 month, kindergarten class of 13 kids could be efficient. One teacher should be able to handle 13 5 year olds for five hours.

I noticed your Catholic icon. You should do some studying on your faith and perhaps you will understand your Church's teaching on human life.

You're right, privatizing schools would increase competition. Which means that the poor would lose out even more than they already do.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Um, getting back to stem cell research...

I include the following statement as being indicative of the orthodox Jewish position:

May 19, 2005

Orthodox Jewish Leaders Call on U.S. House to Support Stem Cell Funding Bill; Castle-Degette Bill Consistent with Jewish Teaching

In advance of an expected U.S. House of Representatives vote next week on legislation that will allow federal funding for some embryonic stem cell research, the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, the nation’s largest Orthodox Jewish umbrella organization representing nearly 1,000 synagogues, has written to House members in support of the legislation. The Union letter is in support of H.R. 810, sponsored by Rep. Mike Castle (R-Del.) and Rep. Diana DeGette (D-Col.) and 200 other sponsors. HR810 will allow public funds to support stem cell research on cells derived from embryos donated to IVF clinics which are in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking IVF treatment, and with the prior consultation with and consent of the donors.

Signed by the Union’s executive vice president, Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, and director of public policy, Nathan J. Diament, the letter states, in pertinent part:

The Jewish tradition places great value upon human life and its preservation. The Torah commands us to treat and cure the ill and to defeat disease wherever possible; to do this is to be the Creator’s partner in safeguarding the created. The traditional Jewish perspective thus emphasizes that the potential to save and heal human lives is an integral part of valuing human life. Moreover, the traditional Jewish perspective does not accord an embryo outside of the womb the full status of humanhood and its attendant protections. Thus, stem cell research may be consistent with and serve these moral and noble goals; however, such research must not be pursued indiscriminately.

H.R. 810 strikes this careful balance. By insisting that publicly funded stem cell research be conducted on cells derived from embryos donated to IVF clinics and were in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking IVF treatment, and by requiring the prior consultation with and consent of the donors, the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act serves to value and venerate the sanctity of life and our responsibilities to our fellow man and woman.

Link: http://www.ou.org/public/statements/2005/n10.htm

And the following was in the May 29 Washington Post:

Bush's Jewish Allies Demur on Stem Cells

By Dana Milbank

Sunday, May 29, 2005; Page A04

The fight to fund embryonic stem cell research has opened a fissure of biblical proportions.

When President Bush last week branded as unethical the stem-cell legislation making its way through Congress, he found himself in a dogma dispute with Orthodox Jews, one of his most valuable constituencies.

The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, the umbrella group for the most conservative branch of Judaism, sided with Christian conservatives on the Terri Schiavo case, public displays of the Ten Commandments, opposition to assisted suicide and same-sex marriage, and more federal support for religious charities.

But after the House passed a bill Tuesday endorsing federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, the Orthodox group applauded. The "potential to save and heal human lives is an integral part of valuing human life," it said. "Moreover, the traditional Jewish perspective does not accord an embryo outside of the womb the full status of humanhood and its attendant protections."

That puts the Jews at odds with Bush -- who said the bill "would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" -- and with House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.), who condemned "the moral catastrophe of means-justifying-the-ends morality." It also conflicted with the Family Research Council, a Christian group that called the bill "unconscionable" and "morally abhorrent."

It was a reminder, as the Jewish group's public policy director, Nathan Diament, wrote in the Forward last year, that "Orthodox Jews are not merely evangelicals who read the Bible right to left."

National Review, a conservative publication that fiercely defends Bush, took an unusual tack; it published an article on its Web site explaining "why Judaism is wrong on stem cells." The article, by Eric Cohen of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, describes the position of the Orthodox rabbis as "morally unconvincing," "irresponsible," "seemingly disingenuous" and "misguided." "Jews," Cohen writes, "seem to have forgotten even the minimal liberal wisdom of tolerance -- the wisdom of not trampling on the moral opinions of their fellow citizens, like pro-life Christians, who believe embryo destruction is not only evil but the gravest evil."

The Jewish group did the Christian thing and turned the other cheek. "We have great respect for the president's view because he bases it on moral principle," Diament said.

DW & I underwent several years of fertility treatment, including 9 IVFs & 2 FETs (that's Frozen Embryo Transfers) before calling it quits (you can whip a dead horse only so long & then it seems kinda pointless). DW has never become pregnant & the doctors here have absolutely no idea why. But we do not complain. God has been good to us beyond measure & has blessed us with 2 marvelous boys, both of whom we adopted (public & closed, that's how it is here; US-style private adoption is illegal here) as infants here in Israel. We still have several frozen ssvsicles in the deepfreeze at one of the Jerusalem hospitals. They, like most of the fertilized embryos that the doctors managed to concoct from my little commandos & DW's eggs, are/were of poor quality & we are inclined to leave them in the deepfreeze until they are no longer viable. (Even the few good quality embryos that we got didn't implant.) Not all frozen embryos are good quality. From what I understand, most are not, partly because the better ones get returned to the mother's body. Thus, I think that the numbers of healthy babies who could be born from the masses of frozen embryos left in deepfreezes is relatively small (very).

As a (very proud !) adoptive parent, I would strongly suggest that couples looking to adopt a child look, first of all, at the masses of actual, already-born children that are available and who are just crying (many of them literally!) for loving parents & good homes. The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America statement I cited above says:

...The traditional Jewish perspective thus emphasizes that the potential to save and heal human lives is an integral part of valuing human life. Moreover, the traditional Jewish perspective does not accord an embryo outside of the womb the full status of humanhood and its attendant protections...

I quote from Be Fruitful and Multiply: Fertility Therapy and the Jewish Tradition by Dr. Richard V. Grazi (published by Genesis Jerusalem Press, 1994):

Nontransplanted embryos fertilized artificially in vitro have no standing as fetuses in Jewish law. Former Tel Aviv Chief Sefardi Rabbi David Halevi rules that "all eggs fertilized in vitro have no standing as embryos...and one may discard them if they were not chosen for implantation, as the law of abortion applies only to procedures in the womb...But in vitro, as was said, there is no prohibition at all."

A similar ruling is offered by former Chief Sefardi Rabbi of Israel Mordechai Eliyahu, who writes that, "all fertilized eggs which are destined to be implanted in the mother's womb should not be destroyed, as a live fetus will yet develop from them. But those eggs which have not been chosen for implantation may be discarded." Neither authority offers any detailed analysis of his legal ruling, apparently considering the position to be obvious and noncontroversial from the perspective of Jewish law and ethics. Indeed, Rabbi David J. Bleich has pointed out that...even an aborted fetus in the early stages of gestation does not require a funeral.

Thus, I would argue that saving an actual, already-born life, by adopting it into a loving home, or possibly healing it by using embryonic stem cells, must outweigh saving potential life.

Be well!

ssv

 

[psychedelicist]

Aren't fetuses unneeded for stem cells at this point? Aren't umbilical corda just as good?

 

[invisible trousers]

Religious dogma is more important than saving lives

Stem cell research is super awesome. I think when we develop cures for diseases from it people will wonder why there was such a strong opposition.