Steam engines

[tansy]

Thanks very much for everyone's interesting points.

So basically, is the general balance of opinion, that, if social, political and those sort of forces had been favourable, they copuld actually have developed USEFUL, working steam engines, yonks ago. That is, that, in theory, they could have developed the technology a lot faster, given the right conditions?

 

[LightHorseman]

Thanks very much for everyone's interesting points.

So basically, is the general balance of opinion, that, if social, political and those sort of forces had been favourable, they copuld actually have developed USEFUL, working steam engines, yonks ago. That is, that, in theory, they could have developed the technology a lot faster, given the right conditions?

Possibly. But then, possibly not.
Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Cray super computer. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken. So depending on what theory of human social development you subscrive to, it is possible that advanced technology could have existed earlier, but it is also possible that the very impediments to technological advance, like the dark ages or monasticism and feudilism are actually integral to achieving the technology we have today.

Like it seems an oak tree has very little in common with an acorn, but it has to pass through all the intermediate stages between acorn and forrest giant before it can be the forest giant. Some hold that technological advance is the same.

Suffice to say, at the very least, that technology and scientific advance are subject to the laws of unintended consequences, and it is impossible to take into account ever variable and every precursor that makes modern technology possible.

 

[tansy]

Possibly. But then, possibly not.
Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Cray super computer. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken. So depending on what theory of human social development you subscrive to, it is possible that advanced technology could have existed earlier, but it is also possible that the very impediments to technological advance, like the dark ages or monasticism and feudilism are actually integral to achieving the technology we have today.

Like it seems an oak tree has very little in common with an acorn, but it has to pass through all the intermediate stages between acorn and forrest giant before it can be the forest giant. Some hold that technological advance is the same.

Suffice to say, at the very least, that technology and scientific advance are subject to the laws of unintended consequences, and it is impossible to take into account ever variable and every precursor that makes modern technology possible.

Yes, I see what you mean, Lighthorseman - good points

 

[Hespera]

It is strange and interesting how certain human achievements come about in certain times and places. Dont you suppose there were just as many African bushmen with the musical / artistic talent to have produced the great symphonies, as there were in Austria in those days, or as produced the great paintings of the Rennaisance?

And of course, in science we know that it will happen that several people are about to publish the same thing at the same time, it gets to being a race sometimes.

Context is so important!

 

[tansy]

It is strange and interesting how certain human achievements come about in certain times and places. Dont you suppose there were just as many African bushmen with the musical / artistic talent to have produced the great symphonies, as there were in Austria in those days, or as produced the great paintings of the Rennaisance?

And of course, in science we know that it will happen that several people are about to publish the same thing at the same time, it gets to being a race sometimes.

Context is so important!

Yes, I've often thought that there must be so much wasted talent and knowledge.
So many people who could have done amaing things, given the opportunity.

Still, people always create and build with what they have available, and maybe some forms of music, or art..or even technology would not have come about, if people HADN'T actually been restricted as to what they had at hand.

 

[juvenissun]

Thanks very much for everyone's interesting points.

So basically, is the general balance of opinion, that, if social, political and those sort of forces had been favourable, they copuld actually have developed USEFUL, working steam engines, yonks ago. That is, that, in theory, they could have developed the technology a lot faster, given the right conditions?

The principle of the technology is very simple. The problem is WHEN did people figure out the application. I am actually amazed that we figured it out so late. This fact fits very well on the timing revealed by Books of Prophecy.

 

[Hespera]

The principle of the technology is very simple. The problem is WHEN did people figure out the application. I am actually amazed that we figured it out so late. This fact fits very well on the timing revealed by Books of Prophecy.

Let us know when you have made a "simple" steam engine with no gauges, no tools, no blueprint, no metal shop, nothing to work with.

If that doesnt turn out let us know when you make one with an entire machine shop to work with.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Yes, I realise that..it was rather that I thought, that given the right conditions, I couldn't see any reason why they couldn't have invented steam engines centuries ago...and in fact, another poster said that an ancient Greek actually did experiment with them, and if it hasdn't been for other factors they quite possibly would have been able to develop them centuries ago.

The point of course being that the conditions weren't right -- there was no social demand for labor saving devices in a society where the definition of "labor saving" was "put more slaves on the job."

Look at what the ancient Greeks, for example, did develop -- advances in philosophy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, etc...all fields of study emphasizing the mental and theoretical aspects, but not much in engineering or mechanics.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The principle of the technology is very simple. The problem is WHEN did people figure out the application. I am actually amazed that we figured it out so late. This fact fits very well on the timing revealed by Books of Prophecy.

If any of that were true, you'd have something to support it.

 

[tansy]

The point of course being that the conditions weren't right -- there was no social demand for labor saving devices in a society where the definition of "labor saving" was "put more slaves on the job."

Look at what the ancient Greeks, for example, did develop -- advances in philosophy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, etc...all fields of study emphasizing the mental and theoretical aspects, but not much in engineering or mechanics.

Yes, I can see that...and I suppose to develop things, you need to have certain people get together with various areas of expertise, to actually produce something - like nowadays, say, you need electronics experts, stress engineers, mathematicians...plus manual labour, to manufacture something (depending on what it is)